Loading to capacity in Production

[JohnGaultsGun]

Is this common at other local clubs?

I've only seen this type of scoring at non-USPSA matches (aka "tactical matches"). However, if I did see it, I would put it in the same category where shooting sub-major (limited/open) and sub-minor (production) ammunition is justified because it's a "local match" implying that scoring doesn't matter.

[vluc]

DD has not told us whether his local club is USPSA affiliated. Until we know that, everything else is just speculation.

[Pezco]

Does it really matter if they are affiliated with USPSA? If they are shooting classifiers they must be thinking they comparing themselves to the rest of us (affiliated) shooters.

[vluc]

I think it does. Affiliated can be spanked, non-affiliated cannot.

Our section had an ex-USPSA club advertising USPSA matches. Contacted them and told them no can do, and they complied (or at least are no longer adverting as such on their site).

If I understand the OP, they run a classifier, where they abide by the rules. Rest of the match, they do not. Is it truly a USPSA match if all you offer is the classifier and then everything else is a "side match"?

Are scores going in or just the classifiers? I don't know, and a lack of detail has been forthcoming. Possibly DD got some heat for posting here about it.

Regardless, he brought up the topic and we need to see what shakes out. I can't see using a single classifier or classifiers as a way for non-aff to compare to aff.

Edited March 12, 2010 by vluc

[bbbean]

Affiliated or not, I'm not sure I see the point. Breaking a stage up into 10 round segments is part of shooting production, just like breaking a stage up into 8 round segments is part of shooting single stack. If you want to load your 9mm up to 15-19 rounds, then go ahead and do it - just call it what it is: limited minor.

Would the same shooters run their limited guns with 170mm mags, and just download to 21 rounds for the classifier?

Edited March 12, 2010 by bbbean

[vluc]

Affiliated or not, I'm not sure I see the point. Breaking a stage up into 10 round segments is part of shooting production, just like breaking a stage up into 8 round segments is part of shooting single stack. If you want to load your 9mm up to 15-19 rounds, then go ahead and do it - just call it what it is: limited minor.

True, it is for USPSA. For a non-USPSA match (outlaw I think they used to be called) it's grins & giggles and put rounds down range.

The silence on this from AD's and SC's is interesting.

Edited March 12, 2010 by vluc

[usmc1974]

OK I need to ask, At the "make ready" you can put a mag with 11 rounds in the gun, cycle the slide and holster? Correct?

[D.Hayden]

Yup.. from the rule book:

Yes, maximum 10 rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal

So what you do before the beep - is up to you.

[spanky]

OK I need to ask, At the "make ready" you can put a mag with 11 rounds in the gun, cycle the slide and holster? Correct?

Yes.

[Nik Habicht]

OK I need to ask, At the "make ready" you can put a mag with 11 rounds in the gun, cycle the slide and holster? Correct?

As long as it's a loaded gun start. If the specified start is unloaded gun, then you can only load with ten --- because that occurs after the start signal....

[G-ManBart]

DD has not told us whether his local club is USPSA affiliated. Until we know that, everything else is just speculation.

Certainly there needs to be some clarification, but it certainly sounds like the OP was saying they're shooting classifiers that get submitted to USPSA. If they aren't sending them in, why bother to stick to the rules for just those stages? I guess it's possible, but I can't see why anybody would go to the trouble to do that unless they were sending those scores in. R,

[DoubleDelta]

Sorry I ddin't get back to this sooner. It is a USPSA affiliated club. The classifiers are shot "by the book" and sent in for score. The side matches are purely for club points-classifer scores also go to club points. All club points count for are club awards at the end of the year. As I said in the OP awards are separated into Open and everything else.

[Nik Habicht]

Sorry I ddin't get back to this sooner. It is a USPSA affiliated club. The classifiers are shot "by the book" and sent in for score. The side matches are purely for club points-classifer scores also go to club points. All club points count for are club awards at the end of the year. As I said in the OP awards are separated into Open and everything else.

So, as far as the match is concerned there are only two divisions recognized? Open and Non-open (or Limited?)

Due to a lack in number of participants?

And for classification purposes all divisions are recognized? So that shooters at your club can travel with a classification in whichever division they might want to shoot on the road?

I'm not sure I see a problem with that approach -- in terms of legality, but I need to dig out a copy of the Club Program Manual to be sure. From a "growing the match" perspective, it might not be the best plan --- but then I'm from a more densely populated part of the country.....

[DoubleDelta]

At the match all divisions are recognized-you can shoot any USPSA division. At the end of the year Open and non-open are the awards catagories. But yes you shoot the classifier for your USPSA classification.

Primary reason is yes, small club. 40-50 shooters is pretty average and that is up from previous years, less than half are club members.

[spanky]

At the match all divisions are recognized-you can shoot any USPSA division. At the end of the year Open and non-open are the awards catagories. But yes you shoot the classifier for your USPSA classification.

Primary reason is yes, small club. 40-50 shooters is pretty average and that is up from previous years, less than half are club members.

I'm not sure I consider 40-50 shooters per match small...

[DoubleDelta]

Sorry, meant to say that 40-50 is a good day but 35 is pretty average. I guess I have no frame of reference as this club is the only one I have shot at. This year I hope to broaden my horizons.

Edited March 13, 2010 by DoubleDelta

[vluc]

Hmm, of your 35 shooters, all USPSA members? Could be a way, as Nik said, to encourage participation and hopefully membership.

DD, what does your regular scheduled match consist of, classifer and how many other stages?

[DoubleDelta]

Hmm, of your 35 shooters, all USPSA members? Could be a way, as Nik said, to encourage participation and hopefully membership.

DD, what does your regular scheduled match consist of, classifer and how many other stages?

15-20 USPSA members are the core of the club. Yes, classifier and 2 side matches.

[Skydiver]

So it's only the mag capacity that changes between the classifier and the other stages? What about mag/holster positions, grip tape, guns on approved list, starting double action, etc?

[colt]

Primary reason is yes, small club. 40-50 shooters is pretty average and that is up from previous years, less than half are club members.

Last year at the normal monthly matchs 27 shooters was are highest 15 shooters was the lowest.

We still fallow all the rules .

Brent

[GISMap]

I don't want to sound antagonizing here, but it sounds like you have some serious organizational issues. The sooner you guys get things organized and following the rules, people will enjoy it more and your attendance will improve.

We have anywhere from 15-75 shooters on a given saturday, I don't do stats so I don't know what percentage are USPSA members, but we have a solid 30 members that shoot most saturdays. We are pretty good about following the rules. There are sometimes we get a new shooter on Monday night practice that doesn't follow the rules or doesn't have appropriate equipment. We try to help them out and get them set up to compete in a match.

[kevin c]

It is not done this way at my club.

Still, if folks meet Division requirements for Open and Limited Major/Minor, then call it that and it'll be by the book. (You could point out that to those shooting minor that they are at a scoring disadvantage compared to those shooting major, a difference that wouldn't exist if they actually shot Production.)

[Flexmoney]

It is a USPSA affiliated club. The classifiers are shot "by the book" and sent in for score. The side matches are purely for club points-classifer scores also go to club points. All club points count for are club awards at the end of the...

I think what is throwing everybody off is when you say "side matches". The common terms are, according to the rule book...

6.1.2

Stage

– A separately timed and scored component of a match.

6.1.3

Match

– Consists of a minimum of 2 stages. The total sum of individual

stage results will be accumulated to declare a match winner...

The classifier is just one stage of the match.

[Flexmoney]

And, here is what the rule book says about equipment Divisions (which are clearly defined in the rule book as well):

6.2.1 USPSA Divisions recognize different handguns and equipment (see Appendix D). Each match must recognize at least one Division. When multiple Divisions are available in a match,

each Division must be scored separately and independently

, and match results must recognize a winner in each Division.

6.2.3 Prior to the commencement of a match, each competitor must declare

one

Division for score.

So, it sounds like your local match is operating outside of the rule book.

[KyroWebs]

Ryan, I know the club you are talking about, and I think the heart of the problem is the end-of-season points awards. If the club can change to recognize winners in each division, instead of open and non-open, I think you could eliminate that problem. Or just bump them all to open and have them learn the hard way