New Rules

[mhs]

TBH, if this becomes "law" I foresee everyone ignoring this rule because it would frankly be stupid and very unfriendly towards new shooters. BOD, please don't make rules we all have to ignore.

And I agree with Vlad

If this rule remains in effect I would guess that it will become very common to hear ROs saying something like "Do you have any mags in your front pockets? If not, Make Ready."

[Nik Habicht]

An important clarification with the new rules is that if the RO says "Make ready", and the SS or Production competitor pulls a mag out of his front pocket, he is bumped to Open.

I normally keep my first mag, with 11 rounds, in my front pocket. This will be hard to remember.

Please, someone say that the above is not so.

make ready is not the start signal

That's why it was legal under the old rule.

Gee, that was never legal under the old rules either. Read 6.2.5.1 (the rule we cite to move a competitor to open...):

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

But it was dumb (and ignored) then, and is still dumb (and likely to be ignored.....)

The problem with "likely to be ignored" is that at some point one may run into an RO who will both know about and enforce the rule.

I think Bruce Gary had it right, when he suggested that if something was a safety problem, the competitor should be disqualified, and that if something was a competitive equity problem, the competitor should be penalized -- as this doesn't fall into either of those categories, we should probably fix it to permit barney magazines to come from anywhere before the start signal...

[Nik Habicht]

TBH, if this becomes "law" I foresee everyone ignoring this rule because it would frankly be stupid and very unfriendly towards new shooters. BOD, please don't make rules we all have to ignore.

And I agree with Vlad

If this rule remains in effect I would guess that it will become very common to hear ROs saying something like "Do you have any mags in your front pockets? If not, Make Ready."

Me too. It'll become something else to educate folks about, just in case they ever want to wander to a big match....

[mhs]

make ready is not the start signal

That's why it was legal under the old rule.

Gee, that was never legal under the old rules either. Read 6.2.5.1 (the rule we cite to move a competitor to open...):But it was dumb (and ignored) then, and is still dumb (and likely to be ignored.....)

Not so sure about this. The old 5.2.4 explicity allowed the competitor to use his pockets to carry mags, and stated no restrictions concerning pocket location.

[Nik Habicht]

make ready is not the start signal

That's why it was legal under the old rule.

Gee, that was never legal under the old rules either. Read 6.2.5.1 (the rule we cite to move a competitor to open...):But it was dumb (and ignored) then, and is still dumb (and likely to be ignored.....)

Not so sure about this. The old 5.2.4 explicity allowed the competitor to use his pockets to carry mags, and stated no restrictions concerning pocket location.

Division requirement trump everything else -- in terms of staying in the declared division and not being moved to Open.....

[Vlad]

What I want to know is how are you going to check? Are you going to stick your hand in my pocket to find I out if I had mags in there? I predict a run on gag dead mice, actual mouse traps, and small (or large) rubber penises. Shortly no RO or NROI representative will stick their hands in anyone's pockets

[mhs]

make ready is not the start signal

That's why it was legal under the old rule.

Gee, that was never legal under the old rules either. Read 6.2.5.1 (the rule we cite to move a competitor to open...):But it was dumb (and ignored) then, and is still dumb (and likely to be ignored.....)

Not so sure about this. The old 5.2.4 explicity allowed the competitor to use his pockets to carry mags, and stated no restrictions concerning pocket location.

Division requirement trump everything else -- in terms of staying in the declared division and not being moved to Open.....

If 5.2.4 doesn't override division requirements, how can you carry a mag in a pocket and not violate D-10?

[rgkeller]

I hope Robbie doesn't pull a mag out of his front pocket at the SS Nationals to break the streak.

[Nik Habicht]

make ready is not the start signal

That's why it was legal under the old rule.

Gee, that was never legal under the old rules either. Read 6.2.5.1 (the rule we cite to move a competitor to open...):But it was dumb (and ignored) then, and is still dumb (and likely to be ignored.....)

Not so sure about this. The old 5.2.4 explicity allowed the competitor to use his pockets to carry mags, and stated no restrictions concerning pocket location.

Division requirement trump everything else -- in terms of staying in the declared division and not being moved to Open.....

If 5.2.4 doesn't override division requirements, how can you carry a mag in a pocket and not violate D-10?

The answer is that you can't.....

....and I'm not sure that's what the rules writers intended to say......

[Nik Habicht]

What I want to know is how are you going to check? Are you going to stick your hand in my pocket to find I out if I had mags in there? I predict a run on gag dead mice, actual mouse traps, and small (or large) rubber penises. Shortly no RO or NROI representative will stick their hands in anyone's pockets

Not gonna check. However, if you go to a Level 2 or higher match (where you may be exposed to ROs who are not familiar to you) you may get dinged if they see you pull a mag from your pocket....

Ask Bob A. sometime about how many matches he shot with a small piece of grip tape on his slide before an unfamiliar RO spotted it at Nats....

[George Jones]

The problem lies with the removal of "after the start signal".

Was the removasl of those words intentional, or was it an oversight?

[Vlad]

Screw the wording, WTH is the problem with having mags in your pockets? Where is the competitive advantage to shoving change and lint into your gun, it sure as hell is not faster then an actual mag pouch? Are we actually concerned about people sewing special pockets? Then just allow magazines in pockets unless the RO belives that particular pocket design adds a competitive advantage.

Edited March 6, 2010 by Vlad

[Nik Habicht]

Screw the wording, WTH is the problem with having mags in your pockets? Where is the competitive advantage to shoving change and lint into your gun, it sure as hell is not faster then an actual mag pouch? Are we actually concerned about people sewing special pockets? Then just allow magazines in pockets unless the RO belives that particular pocket design adds a competitive advantage.

I don't see a problem with mags coming from pockets, the waistband, a bandoleer, etc. as long as the location complies with the "behind the hip" language in Production and SS....

There seems to be a bit of a disconnect with local match management experience...

[Vlad]

And personally I thinks that silly. Front pants pocket is not an advantage over behind the hip. If we want to be pedantic about it, production rules are supposed to emulate some sort of "real world" carry with locations and holster types. I've been given to understand that "real people" carrying spare mags in their pocket all the time.

[rgkeller]

I suppose a SS or Production shooter who stows his ejected mag in his front pocket at "Unload and Show Clear" goes to Open as well.

[XD Niner]

"5.2.4 During the course of fire, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor’s belt and specifically designed for that purpose. Unless specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, a competitor may also carry additional magazines or speed loading devices in apparel pocket(s) and retrieve and use them without penalty, providing that the location of the apparel pocket does not violate the requirements of Appendix D, Item 12 (subject to the provisions of Rule 6.2.5.1)."

I believe that the adjective "spare" is the key here. Miriam Webster defines spare as:

1 : not being used; especially : held for emergency use <a spare tire>

2 : being over and above what is needed : superfluous <spare time>

The initial magazine to be inserted in the pistol would not be a spare. It would be required to begin shooting the COF. Since it is not a spare, it could come from anywhere.

[spanky]

I have a question about this;

1.2.2.3 “Speed Shoot”-Courses of fire consisting of one continuous string of fire not exceeding 16 rounds shot on one or more arrays of multiple targets from a single location or view. No more than 8 rounds may be required without a mandatory reload and no more than one mandatory reload may be required in the course of fire. Stage may be scored either Comstock or Virginia Count. See Rule 9.2.3.2.

Do you have to state specifically when a reload would occur? In other words, could you simply say "Mandatory reload must be performed after the first target is engaged but before the last target is engaged" or something similar?

[Nik Habicht]

And personally I thinks that silly. Front pants pocket is not an advantage over behind the hip. If we want to be pedantic about it, production rules are supposed to emulate some sort of "real world" carry with locations and holster types. I've been given to understand that "real people" carrying spare mags in their pocket all the time.

While I agree with you about the usefulness of front pockets, I also know that one of the concerns of rule writers has to be "the slippery slope." If they allow mags in front pockets, then folks will be asking about (or pushing in matches) front waistbands, centerline magpouches, chest rigs, etc......

[Nik Habicht]

I suppose a SS or Production shooter who stows his ejected mag in his front pocket at "Unload and Show Clear" goes to Open as well.

Technically that would be the right call. If I'm ROing, I'm usually too busy checking the chamber and magwell among others things to notice where the shooter puts his mag....

Seriously -- I think there's a huge difference between pulling a mag out a front pocket at make ready and doing it for a reload in the middle of a stage (where I don't think it's an advantage either --- but at least invoking 6.2.5.1 there is in line with the underlying intent...)

[spanky]

Would it be wrong to point out a grammatical error in the document posted in the OP?

[JThompson]

I have a question about this;

1.2.2.3 "Speed Shoot"-Courses of fire consisting of one continuous string of fire not exceeding 16 rounds shot on one or more arrays of multiple targets from a single location or view. No more than 8 rounds may be required without a mandatory reload and no more than one mandatory reload may be required in the course of fire. Stage may be scored either Comstock or Virginia Count. See Rule 9.2.3.2.

Do you have to state specifically when a reload would occur? In other words, could you simply say "Mandatory reload must be performed after the first target is engaged but before the last target is engaged" or something similar?

Actually, this is a good rule and allows us to design classifiers as well as keep old ones like EL Prez.

Good job on this one guys....

JT

[Gary Stevens]

I have a question about this;

1.2.2.3 “Speed Shoot”-Courses of fire consisting of one continuous string of fire not exceeding 16 rounds shot on one or more arrays of multiple targets from a single location or view. No more than 8 rounds may be required without a mandatory reload and no more than one mandatory reload may be required in the course of fire. Stage may be scored either Comstock or Virginia Count. See Rule 9.2.3.2.

Do you have to state specifically when a reload would occur? In other words, could you simply say "Mandatory reload must be performed after the first target is engaged but before the last target is engaged" or something similar?

This is a bad idea. It would lead to skipping the reload entirely (if you gun holds that much ammo) and taking the single procedural.

[vluc]

This is getting frighteningly entertaining and scary.

I floated these new rules around to the MD's in our Section. Responses have been brutal and candid. You guys should have floated these out to the membership as a draft for feedback and commentary.

[COMATZD]

This is a bad idea. It would lead to skipping the reload entirely (if you gun holds that much ammo) and taking the single procedural.

I believe that you get one procedural per shot after not performing the reload, not just one procedural total.

[jar]

This is a bad idea. It would lead to skipping the reload entirely (if you gun holds that much ammo) and taking the single procedural.

I believe that you get one procedural per shot after not performing the reload, not just one procedural total.

Exactly. Under the proposed rule, there is only one shot fired after not performing the reload. That's the problem Gary was pointing out.