.223 brass processing - to debur & chamfer or not?

[Socal]

Hey all-

I just recieved a bunch of military processed brass, about 2000 pieces of mixed LC 07 and 08 headstamp brass. It came cleaned and the primer pockets were reamed to remove the crimp. I had read about a bunch of people who load bulk ammo for 3-gun and the like who didnt bother with much brass prep, eg. case trimming, chamfer, debur, flash hole ream / chamfer... I loaded approx. 100 rounds up with wolf 5.56 primers, 24 grs varget, seated to cannelure and crimped with dillon crimp die. I noticed that the case lengths varied so much that the seating depth in relation to the cannelure was different almost every time. This is when I started to trim the cases back to 1.75

I am using a forster classic trimmer and while it doesnt leave too bad of a burr on the outside or inside of the throat, I am wondering if is is necessary to chamfer / debur. I was afraid to chamfer because I didt want to take away the "edge" of the throat that woudl be crimped into the cannelure. Also, I figured the dillon crimp die would pretty much get rid of the outside burr. Ami wrong? Just trying to save a step.

-SOCAL!

[DougCarden]

I am afraid there is no free lunch with processing rifle brass......Once you trim it you may be able to throw it in the tumbler and the media will take care of any burrs for you. I have just accepted that when I load .223 I have to devote some time to process the brass, and there is no way around it. Another thing to do is to use a unit like the Gracey that will trim and chamfer at the same time. Neat set up!

Good luck,

DougC

[Socal]

Thanks for the response, looks like I will just have to man up and get it done!!

I am afraid there is no free lunch with processing rifle brass......Once you trim it you may be able to throw it in the tumbler and the media will take care of any burrs for you. I have just accepted that when I load .223 I have to devote some time to process the brass, and there is no way around it. Another thing to do is to use a unit like the Gracey that will trim and chamfer at the same time. Neat set up!

Good luck,

DougC

[jmorris]

What I do is deprime and size on station 1 of a 650, trim on station 3 then run the case through another size/deprime die on station 5. That pretty much irons everything out inside and out; however, when I load I use a 1050 with another size/deprime die (#2) not to mention the expander(#3). I have never had any issues with this process and don't chamfer or debur.

Edited February 28, 2010 by jmorris

[MustangGreg66]

I Also have a foster case trimmer, but mine has a adapter to be used with a hand drill. That helps a lot, but I still end up inside/outside deburring with a hand tool. Just a necessity of the game if you want super accurate ammo. I started loading .223 for varmint hunting, where precision was the name of the game. You might find that you don't need to do all that for 3-gun however. And if you're buying bulk 55gr bullets, the position of the cannelure on the bullet might even vary quite a bit, so you can take that into account when looking at the brass as well.

I haven't shot any 3-gun matches but I've been ramping up to get into the next one and what I've chosen is to have two loads. One non-processed blasting load for the close in run-n-gun targets using 55gr bullets and then another higher precision processed brass load using 69gr SMK for the long range shots. I'm not sure how well that's going to go into application. The range I shoot at only has up to 200 yards so I'd probably be safe just using 55gr bullets the whole way. Switching I'll have to keep a mind set for bullet placement and I havn't really patterned both loads yet, so they might not even be practical.

[Dan Sierpina]

Forster now has a cutter that trims and chamfers at the same time. It fits the standard trimmer, and may fit the trimmer for the drill press. It has a carbide cutter, which will last a looong time.

[Smithars]

I picked up the Giraud power trimmer for trimming cases. It's expensive but well worth the cost. I end up trimming everything just because it's easy. Trims, chamfers, and deburs in one step. While you probably don't need to chamfer it is really nice for seating the bullets and makes loading easier.

I debur the flash hole and uniform the primer pockets as well. The flash hole only needs to be done the one time over the life of the brass and seems to be fairly quick. Uniforming the primer pocket takes a bit longer and I need to come up with a better way of holding the brass as I use a drill with the uniforming tool and holding the brass tightly with the hand gets tiring. I think doing the primer pockets is definitely worth it for an AR as you really want to make sure you have the primer set to the correct depth. I've not really loaded too much a second time through so I'm not sure how necessary it is to uniform the pocket every time you reload the case.

It may not matter for a lot of 3-gun competitions as far as accuracy goes. If you're only shooting close range in pistol bays. I picked up a bunch of processed and primed .223 from Scharch and loaded with 55gr hornady's they shoot pretty well out to 200. This stuff was all trimmed to length so I didn't need to do that. On my loading head for the 550 the first stage is just a neck sizing die so I pulled the depriming pin and still ran the primed brass through that stage just in case.

[jaredr]

loading 100 yard .223 ammo, i've never bothered with chamferring or deburring. i prep on a dedicated toolhead with a dillon trimmer, and have so far had no problems seating 55 gr ball bullets on the unchamfered case neck. accuracy has always been more then sufficient for me - 1 to 1.5" @ 100 yards. i'm sure you could tighten up the groups with better brass prep, bullet selection, improved rifle or better shooter, but it's been good enough for me... ymmv depending on what you're loading for.

-jared

[Nick Weidhaas]

I use the same brass and don't trim. I do use a 55gr. NBT across the board and my accuracy has been outstanding out to 400 with my JP 1:8 twist bbl. On a Dillon 550B, I seat a CCI SP primer, drop 26.2gr of H335, seat a 55gr. NBT with a Redding Competition Seating die at 2.240 oal and I'm done. I don't crimp. Have loaded over 2K of this load and never had a problem. A buddy loads the same way and has not had a problem either. For 3gun, I don't think you need the extra case prep steps to make accurate ammo. YMMV. Good luck.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Nick Weidhaas

[sleepercaprice1]

I'm using a Dillon trimmer for .223 and don't deburr or chamfer. What I do is size/trim with the Dillon the first pass and then deprime/size with a second conventional sizing die set so it doesn't really do any additional sizing. I've been doing the 2 step process in a RCBS single stage, but plan to set up a tool head for my 550.

I find that the minute burr left from the Dillon trimmer is swaged/removed after running through the sizing die. If I was loading flat base bullets, I might be inclined to use a chamfering tool, but with boat tails I don't bother.

[Graham Smith]

I'm using a Dillon trimmer for .223 and don't deburr or chamfer. What I do is size/trim with the Dillon the first pass and then deprime/size with a second conventional sizing die set so it doesn't really do any additional sizing.

OK, I'm confused.

Dillon says that the trimmer sizes and trims in one step (it does not say that it deprimes so I assume it doesn't). They do not say that it eliminates the need to chamfer/deburr but some other posts here and elsewhere indicate that it's really not needed for .223

You run it through the Dillon then through a "normal" sizing die (and I'll assume that you deprime as a first step) and don't chamfer/deburr.

Other people indicate that they use a normal deprime/sizing die first, then the Dillion, then chamfer/deburr afterward.

This is like trying to choose which pancakes to get at the IHOP! I've got a whole pile of brass to process and doing one thing at a time is a huge PITA, but trying to sort out how to do it is going to take even longer than prepping the brass.

[D.Hayden]

There's no 100% correct answer, it's sort of mix and match. And prepping the brass on a 1050 gives a lot of choices since you have more stations available and adding a die here or there, doesn't take any more time. I'll prep a big batch of brass at one time.

The Dillon trim dies does all the sizing you need. But it's a little more awkward to setup. So, some people do the sizing on a 'normal' die first and then just trim on the 1200. I started sizing partway on a normal die and the rest on the trim die to smooth out the process.

After running the brass through the trimmer, I tumble the brass in corncob. That takes off the lube, and takes off any burrs left from trimming. Then, now that the brass is all prepped, when I load it, I use a neck die on, to make sure the flash hole is clear, and get the right neck tension. This last step moves around for people too, or may only be a universal decapper die.

For Chamfering: Here's what I'd suggest.

If you have the Dillon trimmer.. run 2x a suitable test size (you have to determine that). take 1/2 and use them as is, the other have chamfer inside and out. See if there's any difference in feeding or accuracy. For me there was none. So I don't do anything else to them. Some people swear you're asking for trouble. I've run at least 5,000 (it must be much higher than this) through my rifle this way without any issues. Most 3 gunners I know don't either.

[Graham Smith]

I started sizing partway on a normal die and the rest on the trim die to smooth out the process.

How do you size partway? Back out the die a turn?

[RiggerJJ]

1. clean & LUBE!

2. full length, small base sizer/decapper

3. trim

4. tumble to remove lube

5. remove ALL tumbling media from flash/primer holes

6. deswage primer pocket if needed

7. prime

8. bell case mouth slightly

9. powder

10. seat bullet

11. crimp slightly

jj

[John Z Sr]

I deprime/resize at station 1 on a 550, and have the Dillon trimmer set at station 3, then into the tumbler to remove lube and the check flash holes for media and use the RCBS case mate to chamfer/debur. Little extra work, but you get good safe brass, also gives you a chance to find defects in the brass you may have missed before

[D.Hayden]

I started sizing partway on a normal die and the rest on the trim die to smooth out the process.

How do you size partway? Back out the die a turn?

Yes.

The rest of the steps the same as JJ.. but I don't bell the case mouth. neck tension has always been enough for me.

[RiggerJJ]

I just slightly bell, and I mean slight, to clear any inside burr with the bell die. I have never deburred or chamfered because the Dillon trimmer leaves such a nice edge. The slight bell will also not scar a flat base bullet during seating.

those 11 steps I posted I do on two heads in a 650 or 1050.

jj

[saibot]

I stopped chamfering/deburring .223/5.56 brass. I noticed no difference doing what I do. It pretty much happens by my loading process anyway.

With once fired brass I:

1. Tumble it clean then lube and pour into my 650's case feeder

2. With my toolhead that only has my small base sizer in it I pull the leaver until they've all had a visit through and land into the bin

3. I trim and swage

4. Then it all goes back into the tumbler. This step does a great job of getting the freshly trimmed cases to an acceptable level and helps clean the primer pocket that was exposed last trip through the tumbler

5. Lightly lube and dump back into the casefeeder, this time the press has my full toolhead in it with an RCBS smallbase X die. I like this die because it's mandrel seems to knock out any burrs that might still be left and although the primer is already gone, the decapping pin knocks out any tumbling media that might be in the flash hole.

6. Reload....

For me this has worked great (especially now that I have my headspace issue fixed) and saved me quite a bit of time. I shoot Practial Rifle and a little 3 gun with this ammo and with the cheap 55 grain Montana Gold bullets it hits whatever I point it at out to 300. I have a little trouble after that but is probably just me since I don't shoot with any magnification and my EOTech's dot is larger than some of the targets, so who knows maybe I could get a little more out of it?

If I need anything more accurate it doesn't get loaded on a progressive press (I switch to my Lee single stage press for my .308) as I just can't get the consistency required for that type of shooting.

Anyway, probably not the perfect way, but for what I do it's the best way for what I do given the labor/performance trade offs.

/2 cents

[S-Hurt]

You have awesome advice from Nick, Saibot, RiggerJJ, and Berkim. Now I'm gonna tell you the same thing they are. I also don't mess with the crimp .... not needed.

[RiggerJJ]

to crimp or not to crimp 223 rounds?

here's what I have been doing and why; (this ONLY applys to autoloading rifles, AR15, etc)

I put a slight crimp on for one reason only, to prevent setback. I used to load without crimping, and found that neck tension was insufficient enough to prevent setback, espcially during some of my failure to feed problems, to include double feeds. the bullet would get pushed all the way back into the case and powder would go everywhere, to include into the chamber. clear the feed problem and finally load another round, how much powder was in the chamber? will it cause a problem when the next round fires? etc???

A couple other things that convinced me to crimp 223 rounds; 1) Dillon reccomended it. 2) crimping is done on pistol rounds that are auto-loaded for a reason, why not apply the same rational to auto-loaded rifle ammo?

try this test; load a few without crimp and go to the range. put one of the non-crimped in a mag, then put another round on top of them. fire the 1st round, manually eject the 2nd round (the one without the crimp) and check OAL. Repeat several times. My guess is you will find setback on most if not all of the 2nd rounds.

jj

[Younger]

I have never used a crimp on any rifle cartridge. If the neck tension is not enough to hold the bullet in place, I polish the mandrel to reduce it's size .001 or .002 or what is needed to increase the neck tension. I personally have seen increased accuracy with this procedure.

[saibot]

Just to add my 2 cents, I crimp everything. If an autoloader slams a round into battery and the bullet gets pushed into the case, you're increasing pressure which will at best change the POI from shot to shot. Worst case scenario the pressure is too high causing something to give. I also crimp my precision rounds for my bolt gun because of the increase and consistency of bullet drag. This increases the start pressure and improves accuracy from shot to shot according to Richard Lee's "Modern Reloading" (page 57). And finally, at the volume we're producing ammunition we're most likely using a progressive press which means other than the initial setup, there is no extra effort to add a crimp so why not improve safety and accuracy and just add the die to your toolhead?

And for what's it's worth, I'm a big fan of the Lee Factory Crimp die. Depending on what I'm loading for I have dies from Dillon, Lee, and RCBS but always finish off with a LFCD.

/off soapbox

[DougCarden]

Call me cautious, but there is no way I am gonna shoot a 60k Psi cartridge in an aluminum reciever right next to my face with no crimp. I know of a couple guns that were destroyed by "factory" .223 that did not get crimped and had bullet set back.

DougC

[elenius]

to crimp or not to crimp 223 rounds?

here's what I have been doing and why; (this ONLY applys to autoloading rifles, AR15, etc)

I put a slight crimp on for one reason only, to prevent setback. I used to load without crimping, and found that neck tension was insufficient enough to prevent setback, espcially during some of my failure to feed problems, to include double feeds. the bullet would get pushed all the way back into the case and powder would go everywhere, to include into the chamber. clear the feed problem and finally load another round, how much powder was in the chamber? will it cause a problem when the next round fires? etc???

A couple other things that convinced me to crimp 223 rounds; 1) Dillon reccomended it. 2) crimping is done on pistol rounds that are auto-loaded for a reason, why not apply the same rational to auto-loaded rifle ammo?

try this test; load a few without crimp and go to the range. put one of the non-crimped in a mag, then put another round on top of them. fire the 1st round, manually eject the 2nd round (the one without the crimp) and check OAL. Repeat several times. My guess is you will find setback on most if not all of the 2nd rounds.

jj

I also put a very slight crimp, but just because my Dillon die set came with a crimp die

I had setback problems with cannelured Hornady FMJs, BUT I don't think crimp is the real solution. I found that I could push in the bullet even with crimp. The real solution for me was to adjust the sizing die further down. Now I have it so that the base of the cartridge is even with the *lower* edge of the JP case gauge, and I have NO setback problems with any bullets, any OAL, or any amount of crimp or lack thereof. I can't even push the bullet in if I lean my whole weight on it against the workbench. So to summarize: Check your sizing die and adjust it down if you're getting setback problems; at least that worked for me.

ETA: My procedure, on a 550:

1) Clean the brass

2) Lube brass with Dillon lube.

3) Size and deprime with a dedicated tool head that only has the Dillon sizing die

4) Clean brass again to remove lube.

5) Trim/chamfer/debur on Giraud trimmer

6) Swage on Dillon super swage

7) Run through the second toolhead which has powder, bullet seating, and crimp dies.

Some people like to clean after trimming because of possible brass shavings remaining, but I've never seen any so I don't worry about that.

It may also be a good idea to have a depriming only die on the second toolhead to push out any cleaning media stuck in the primer hole. I do that on my 308 setup but haven't got around to it on my 223 setup.

Edited June 14, 2010 by elenius

[3gunpinoy]

Hey all-

I just recieved a bunch of military processed brass, about 2000 pieces of mixed LC 07 and 08 headstamp brass. It came cleaned and the primer pockets were reamed to remove the crimp. I had read about a bunch of people who load bulk ammo for 3-gun and the like who didnt bother with much brass prep, eg. case trimming, chamfer, debur, flash hole ream / chamfer... I loaded approx. 100 rounds up with wolf 5.56 primers, 24 grs varget, seated to cannelure and crimped with dillon crimp die. I noticed that the case lengths varied so much that the seating depth in relation to the cannelure was different almost every time. This is when I started to trim the cases back to 1.75

I am using a forster classic trimmer and while it doesnt leave too bad of a burr on the outside or inside of the throat, I am wondering if is is necessary to chamfer / debur. I was afraid to chamfer because I didt want to take away the "edge" of the throat that woudl be crimped into the cannelure. Also, I figured the dillon crimp die would pretty much get rid of the outside burr. Ami wrong? Just trying to save a step.

-SOCAL!

a bout a year back, i got tired of doing chamfer/debur. so what i did was to process some cases with chamfering /deburring and others completly missing this step. then i loaded it with hornandy 55g and took it to the rance and set paper at 100. the grouping for both sets are nearly identical and I even switch rifles (Jp to an mstn) and still same results. a couple of weeks later, i did the same process (debur/chamger VS no doing it) and loaded 69 SMK. took it out but this time I set my targets at 300. This time, i can tell there is a larger grouping on the "Un chamfered/ deburred " cases vs the completly process ones.

is this definitive?? maybe not as the distances where different on both test, but I could clearly see the diffrence. the groups opened up about 1.5 moa or more on the Unchamfered/ deburred cases shooting at 300. My goal is just to determine if I can skip this step doing my 55 grain hoser rounds and still get accurate shots at 100 yds ( which it did) and determine if i can get away with it with my 300 yd loads (NOT !!!)

I did this test twice just becuase of curiuosity, and yes, the results were nealry identical. i do not have the numbers with me but i am sure it had some effect, but only at long distance.

so today, i only chamfer/debur my heavy bullets and avoid doing it on the hoser ones

In terms of crimp, i always do it, as i tried not to crimp, there are times that i get jams or sometimes get erratic recoil impulses. ( pressure)

but mostly jams and true enough, the bullet gets push it and somehow misfeeds. BUT, the moment i crimp it, it all goes away.

I use a 1050 to load and a redding competion adjustable die for bullet setting.

my 2 cents of observation