Primers look strange

[usmc1974]

Posted this else where but, I reloading 38 super with 6.8 grains power pistol and 130 fmj bullet not a hard crimp. There is no great recoil with this load no signs of pressure but the primes look strange, looks like it is trying to remove the firing pin mark. this is not a great picture but here it is, what do ya'll think. Thanks

Edited February 17, 2010 by usmc1974

[dillon]

Actually, this could be a pressure sign, or else the mainspring might be too light. Where did the load data come from?

[usmc1974]

I did a web search, 38 super loads and this is one that came up. It is very accurate 25 rounds went into a whole the size of a 50 cent piece at 20 yards open sights.

Handloads.com

[dillon]

Try backing the load off .2 or .3 grains, see how the primers look.

[BSeevers]

Your getting flowback and its not too bad But it could indicate high pressure so I just have a couple ? Flowback could cause a malfunction by putting too much metal in the firing pin tunnel causing a "click" instead of a bang. I believe in oversized FP's can help but I would not tolerate flowback cause I know it would bite me at a match someday reguardless of oversized FP's. You know fix the problem at the source.

Are you trying to shoot major? If so you must chrono. I would never shoot a load until I chronoed it a couple times. I saw a guy shooting 1800 fps in a Super til we chronoed him. Unsafe? probably. Hard on gun? Uh yea. Wake up call.

Your gun is comped? Most people shoot a slower powder putting 8-10 grains of a different powder to get a better comp effect. If not comped, then faster powders do feel better in non comped guns for sure.

I would recommend a more popular and proven powder. PP is probabaly a good powder but I do this to shoot, not to work to make guns run and you can follow the lead of someone else and use their R&D to get your stuff working very quickly and easily. You can probably make power pistol work, especially if its not major, its just easier to follow others.

Edited February 17, 2010 by BSeevers

[bdpaz]

FWIW, my Sierra manual shows Power Pistol loads from 6.2 to 7.8 at a 1.275 oal with their .355 130FMJ. I used 6.6 gr of PP with Precision Delta 124grFMJ (.356) in my single stack for a while with no problems other than a lot of muzzle flash at night. I switched to Titegroup to eliminate the light show.

[usmc1974]

Thanks Guys for the good advice I think your right. I weighted the bullets they are 133.5-134.9 using 6.8 grains power pistol OAL IS 1.250. I did chrno them and they are runnig about 1240-1255 making major but just barely (1223 is maj). I will cut back to 6.5 and/or should I cut down on the OAL.

[bdpaz]

Thanks Guys for the good advice I think your right. I weighted the bullets they are 133.5-134.9 using 6.8 grains power pistol OAL IS 1.250. I did chrno them and they are runnig about 1240-1255 making major but just barely (1223 is maj). I will cut back to 6.5 and/or should I cut down on the OAL.

Why are you trying to make major? Open is the only division where the minimum caliber for major is .354 and if you are in open with a comp gun I don't think Power Pistol is what you want. Others division are .40 minimum.

And I'd go longer on the OAL, not cut it down, then see how things work and adjust powder charge from there.

Edited February 17, 2010 by bdpaz

[al503]

And I'd go longer on the OAL, not cut it down, then see how things work and adjust powder charge from there.

Yup. Probably can't go much longer as you might be limited by the mag dims but I wouldn't reduce the OAL either. I would, however, check and make sure you have enough freebore to run the OAL that long.

[RiggerJJ]

He's running 38 super, so I would guess its for an open gun...see post #1

I would use another powder, go for a slower burn rate...

jj

Edited February 18, 2010 by RiggerJJ

[usmc1974]

Thanks Guys for the good advice I think your right. I weighted the bullets they are 133.5-134.9 using 6.8 grains power pistol OAL IS 1.250. I did chrno them and they are runnig about 1240-1255 making major but just barely (1223 is maj). I will cut back to 6.5 and/or should I cut down on the OAL.

Why are you trying to make major? Open is the only division where the minimum caliber for major is .354 and if you are in open with a comp gun I don't think Power Pistol is what you want. Others division are .40 minimum.

And I'd go longer on the OAL, not cut it down, then see how things work and adjust powder charge from there.

Yes, I an shooting open 38 super wanting to use up the 135's I have then go to 124's and a poweder liks 7625. You don't think 6.8 and a 135 is the problem or should I cut back to 6.5 with the oal 2.260. Thanks

[G-ManBart]

Yes, I an shooting open 38 super wanting to use up the 135's I have then go to 124's and a poweder liks 7625. You don't think 6.8 and a 135 is the problem or should I cut back to 6.5 with the oal 2.260. Thanks

Don't try changing the OAL to lower (or raise) the pressure....it's only hiding what's going on. Pressure is pressure. If you drop the load, and increase the OAL, what you're getting is the same as dropping the load a bit more, but leaving the OAL the same.

Set the OAL for what fits in the magazine, and runs in the gun. Adjust the powder charge to get the velocity and stay within pressure limits.

Power Pistol is on the fast side for making Major in a Super (it's between N330 and N340 and I've never seen anybody say they were using N330 for Major Super, and very few using N340 for Major Super. It's also faster than 7625 and HS-6...both of which are about the fastest you see people regularly using for Major Super.

There are a lot of other choices that are a bit slower, won't run as high a pressure, and will likely work the comp better...worth considering, if only to be on the safe side. R,

[usmc1974]

Yes, I an shooting open 38 super wanting to use up the 135's I have then go to 124's and a poweder liks 7625. You don't think 6.8 and a 135 is the problem or should I cut back to 6.5 with the oal 2.260. Thanks

Don't try changing the OAL to lower (or raise) the pressure....it's only hiding what's going on. Pressure is pressure. If you drop the load, and increase the OAL, what you're getting is the same as dropping the load a bit more, but leaving the OAL the same.

Set the OAL for what fits in the magazine, and runs in the gun. Adjust the powder charge to get the velocity and stay within pressure limits.

Power Pistol is on the fast side for making Major in a Super (it's between N330 and N340 and I've never seen anybody say they were using N330 for Major Super, and very few using N340 for Major Super. It's also faster than 7625 and HS-6...both of which are about the fastest you see people regularly using for Major Super.

There are a lot of other choices that are a bit slower, won't run as high a pressure, and will likely work the comp better...worth considering, if only to be on the safe side. R,

I was told HS6 is better 9.1 124 MG 1.255 CCIMSP I have some HS6 will tr this load.

Edited February 18, 2010 by usmc1974

[G-ManBart]

I was told HS6 is better 9.1 124 MG 1.255 CCIMSP I have some HS6 will tr this load.

HS-6 should be better, but I wouldn't jump right to 9.1gr. When I did a catalog of as much data as I could find for Super/Supercomp there were folks running 124/125s and making major with around 8.2gr of HS-6. The highest anybody listed was 9.2gr, so dropping down to maybe 8.5gr for starters might be a good idea. More than one person had a load listed at 8.5/8.6gr as making Major. R,

[usmc1974]

I was told HS6 is better 9.1 124 MG 1.255 CCIMSP I have some HS6 will tr this load.

HS-6 should be better, but I wouldn't jump right to 9.1gr. When I did a catalog of as much data as I could find for Super/Supercomp there were folks running 124/125s and making major with around 8.2gr of HS-6. The highest anybody listed was 9.2gr, so dropping down to maybe 8.5gr for starters might be a good idea. More than one person had a load listed at 8.5/8.6gr as making Major. R,

Your right again Bart, I have my loader set for 8.5 with Fed smp primers oal 1.250 I did find this

Jeffrey Vince-Cruz 124gr Remington FMJ 9.0gr HS6 1.265 1340 166.1 (72) 5 Cone Bbl, 6-port

Chet Whistle 124 gr Win JRN 9.5gr HS6 1.255 1450 179.8

Ron Iden 125gr Zero FMJ 9.1gr HS6 1.255 1374 171.6 (71) Yanek/Infinity 6-port comp

Edited February 18, 2010 by usmc1974

[GrumpyOne]

I've loaded with Power Pistol for years (in 40 & 38/357) and it works great in those calibers. When I tried to make it work for 38 super, I was getting the same primer conditions you are showing. It's just too fast. What gun are you shooting those out of? I was shooting mine through a stock Trubor, got up to 8.2 grains of PP, but the flash is so bright, you can't see anything for a second after it goes off, and even then, it wouldn't cycle the slide completely every time. Listen to G-man....Try 7.5 grains of Longshot and work up from there, or start at about 9.0 grains with VV N105.

[usmc1974]

I have done a lot of searches on 38 super loads. I think I know less now then when I started . I was wanting to try a light bullet like a 115 FMJ/HP and SR7625 because I can get this combo here, Bart said that light bullet shoot flatter, and I want to make major. I miss and some times hit the white targets so I need all the scoring help I can get.

[Yardbird]

Power Pistol works great in my major 9 with 124s. I have been using it for years. Primers look absolutely normal, no signs of pressure at all.

[BigBore56]

Power Pistol works great in my major 9 with 124s. I have been using it for years. Primers look absolutely normal, no signs of pressure at all.

Alliants web site shows 7.2 grains of Power Pistol under a 180 JHP for a .40 S&W. I loaded 100 of these, and the primers look just like yours in the picture. This was a STOUT load...lots of flash and LOUD. They were even bulged more. I heard that a SR primer would work better in the .40 to stop this?

I loaded 6.0 under a 124 MG JHP in my 9mm. and the primers looked normal. Alliant recommended a load of 6.4 for that bullet. I will try that load this weekend.

[njl]

Do you have a closer-up shot? Its hard for me to tell from the pic you posted, but it looks kind of like some brass I've picked up at a local match. I tracked it down to the shooter, and found it's factory Federal 9mm FMJ. His primers end up with a raised area around the firing pin impact...kind of like the primer is a volcano with its top blown off.

Assuming this really is Federal factory ammo are you saying that too light a spring driving the hammer could enable the primer to be able to push back against the hammer and flow a bit into the firing pin channel?

[LPatterson]

Do you have a closer-up shot? Its hard for me to tell from the pic you posted, but it looks kind of like some brass I've picked up at a local match. I tracked it down to the shooter, and found it's factory Federal 9mm FMJ. His primers end up with a raised area around the firing pin impact...kind of like the primer is a volcano with its top blown off.

Assuming this really is Federal factory ammo are you saying that too light a spring driving the hammer could enable the primer to be able to push back against the hammer and flow a bit into the firing pin channel?

Federal primers have a softer cup than most other brands so they are not good pressure indicators. Most guns that have hammers have a spring that retacts the firing pin so there is not contact of the hammer forcing the firing pin forward after the primer ignites. This is why there is primer flow into the firing pin hole. A Glock for example has a firing pin spring that drives the striker/firing pin into the primer and stays there. This is why people can pick up a piece of brass and say "this was fired in a Glock".

[G-ManBart]

I have done a lot of searches on 38 super loads. I think I know less now then when I started . I was wanting to try a light bullet like a 115 FMJ/HP and SR7625 because I can get this combo here, Bart said that light bullet shoot flatter, and I want to make major. I miss and some times hit the white targets so I need all the scoring help I can get.

I'm not sure that 115s with something as fast as 7625 would be much flatter. The primary reason you'll often (not always) get less dot rise with the lighter bullets is because you use more powder to develop more gas volume to work the comp. The fastest powder I've tried 115s with was N350...it was a touch flatter than N350 and 125s, but not a whole lot. Going to something like 3N38 or N105 it's a definite change. If you can get 7625, can you get 4756 from the same source (both Hodgdon products)? That would be a good combo to try with the lighter bullets. If you do try it, and like it, get a bunch as the lot to lot variation can be significant. R,

[G-ManBart]

Power Pistol works great in my major 9 with 124s. I have been using it for years. Primers look absolutely normal, no signs of pressure at all.

Alliants web site shows 7.2 grains of Power Pistol under a 180 JHP for a .40 S&W. I loaded 100 of these, and the primers look just like yours in the picture. This was a STOUT load...lots of flash and LOUD. They were even bulged more. I heard that a SR primer would work better in the .40 to stop this?

I loaded 6.0 under a 124 MG JHP in my 9mm. and the primers looked normal. Alliant recommended a load of 6.4 for that bullet. I will try that load this weekend.

The Alliant data I have shows 6.9 as a max with a 180, but it could be older than the online version. Speer shows 7.2gr as max with a 180. Either way, your load is on the warm side, so it's not unexpected to start seeing pressure signs...depends on the cases you're using (they can vary significantly in .40) and the OAL you've chosen.

An SR primer will help hide the signs, but won't lower the pressure. In fact, they'll probably slightly raise the pressure. R,

[usmc1974]

I am not sure, but I think it was the old recoil spring. I went to a new wolf 10 lb commander length recoil spring and the primers looked ok, same load of 135fmj 6.8 power pistol oal 1.245.