I'll second what DougC said. Start at 7yds. and work out. My 25 yard groups always looked like a shotgun pattern from all of my other guns, open, limited, glocks, and a CZ. After getting used to an M&P I now have a group at 25 yards. These guns are not bullseye accurate, but my 147gr and 124gr reloads will all stay in the down zero zone of an IDPA target unsupported.