MAC702

Why do you refuse to read the rule right after the one you are so hung up on? Here it is again: 2.5.2 Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a competitor who arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and proceeds immediately to a match official for the express purpose of safely unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualification per the provisions of Rule 10.5.13 Reading this rule makes it clear to me that if the competitor does not proceed immediately to a match official to get unloaded he would be subject to DQ under 10.5.13 which says: 10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the Range Officer. Why do you refuse to discuss this with me like an adult? We are arriving at different conclusions, obviously, but it is childish to tell me that my opinion is because I'm not reading. I have used material from all of 2.5, to include 2.5.1 and 2.5.2 throughout my participation in this thread. After you quoted me here, I added this thought on edit, which perhaps clarifies why I have my different opinion than yours: Its reference to Rule 10.5.13 would apply only when a competitor entered that portion of the range [allocated to the USPSA match] with his loaded firearm, if the station had been provided. It therefore can't apply before the competitor enters that portion of the range [because the rules say the loading/unloading station must be outside that portion of the range.] Ergo, so would be the parking area. I also added: I can definitely see how handling a firearm at the car can be in violation of a club rule, and penalized in accordance with the bylaws of the club, but I do NOT see how a competitor can be DQ'd from a USPSA match for it, a match that he has already completed prior to going to his car and violating the club rules.

For being f-ing proud to be a rules guy, you have continually provided your opinion as if it were a binding rule. I've never disagreed with your claims of common sense. We have some people here who seem proud to DQ people when a rule doesn't clearly call for it, instead of using it as a teaching or training moment instead. I'm reading Rule 2.5 right now. It does not mandate the use of a loading/unloading station, even if one is provided, period. It does however, clearly state that such a station, if provided, would be outside the "portion of the range allocated to the USPSA match," therefore the parking area can't be inside that portion of said range, for the purposes of USPSA rules. Its reference to Rule 10.5.13 would apply only when a competitor entered that portion of the range with his loaded firearm, if the station had been provided. It therefore can't apply before the competitor enters that portion of the range. I can definitely see how handling a firearm at the car can be in violation of a club rule, and penalized in accordance with the bylaws of the club, but I do NOT see how a competitor can be DQ'd from a USPSA match for it, a match that he has already completed prior to going to his car and violating the club rules. No one can argue your opinion about what you say is safe. It's a valid opinion. But we are discussing the rules. You can have rules for your private club, too, of course, but you can't enforce them as if they are USPSA rules if they aren't.

You're right Section 2.5 does not mandate a competitor to unload. The competitor is free to keep a loaded gun on their person. Now, if discovered by an RO -- well, Rule 10.5.13 (which is referenced in Rule 2.5.2) mandates disqualification for the competitor. So, section 2.5, when read in its entirety, including the rules it refers to, does in fact mandate that a competitor unload a carry gun at an unloading station if provided, or notifies a match official immediately for assistance in safely unloading. This process gets much easier if you read the rulebook in its entirety... Once again, We do not have clear jurisdiction for Rule 10.5.13. THAT is the question. The reference to 10.5.13 from 2.5 is if the competitor brings the loaded gun to the USPSA range. We are discussing the parking area and whether or not it applies "before" or "after" a match. I have the rule book right here in front of me, and am willing to discuss it. Please try not to be condescending. And no, Rule 2.5 does NOT mandate the use of a loading/unloading area for loading or unloading. It just says that if one is provided, you are no longer allowed to bring a loaded gun into the USPSA range for that purpose. Obviously, if one is provided, you would be smarter to use it, but that's not the issue. Indeed, the context of this rule supports that the loading/unloading station is not itself part of the USPSA range, and therefore neither would be the parking area.

One of the issues in other parts of the country, is that when you go to handle a gun in the parking lot, you may very well be sweeping the pits, competitors, set-up and tear down crews, etc. Understandably folks get downright testy when you show them the muzzle of your gun. That's why locally we require that you do all gun handling at a safe table while on range property -- the lone exception being carry guns. For those, you get to see a match director or RO -- generally this isn't a problem at NJ matches, unless we have a police officer playing..... I agree with you on potential safety issues for some parking areas. This is a question of uniform rules enforcement. And a DQ from a match official had better come with a clear rule, one which this thread is showing is not clear.

Appendix A.3.3, of the rulebook says they follow the USPSA Production list. https://steelchallenge.com/steel-challenge-Rules-Home.php

Post 15 presumably refers to Rule 2.5. Once again, Rule 2.5 does not mandate anything to a competitor. It says that if an unloading area is not provided, and you enter the USPSA range with a loaded pistol for that purpose, you won't be disqualified (interestingly making no mention of reloading after the match). It says that clubs SHOULD provide a loading/unloading station, and outlines the requirements of one if they do. It does not mandate the use of an unloading area, even if provided. No one is arguing following the rules. The unanswered question is when and where you fall under those rules.

This. Otherwise it would also include ANY loaded firearms ANYWHERE in your vehicle, like moving the the loaded shotgun behind the seat to a more hidden location.We are using handgun rules. At least that's what the rule book is called. Moving a shotgun around in the car matters little to me. Gunning up for the match means a lot to me.The rules also address CCW holders in the absence of an unloading station. Rule 10.5.1 says "firearm." How can YOU make an exception to what kind of firearm? THAT part of the rule is not vague, whereas time and geography is. Rule 2.5 is the other rule you are mentioning. It says that areas should be provided, and specifies that if they are not, and a competitor chooses to go (immediately) to a match official to get his firearm taken care of, he won't be held liable to a penalty for entering the USPSA range for doing so.

Appendix C3 of the Rules may be interesting. One declares he is using Official Match Ammunition BEFORE starting the match. However, at any time they are allowed to begin using non-official ammo as long as they withdraw their declaration prior to its use. So, there is obviously a method and precedent in place for changing declarations during a match.

This. Otherwise it would also include ANY loaded firearms ANYWHERE in your vehicle, like moving the the loaded shotgun behind the seat to a more hidden location.

No one is arguing complacency. You aren't proposing a solution, either. Let's say it's time to clean your daily-carried firearm. Do you drive down to the nearest range so you can unholster it and unload it while it points at a bullet berm, then repeat after you are done cleaning it? Or are you as methodical and safe as you can be while loading and unloading it at home? Again, WHEN and WHERE exactly does Rule 10.5.1 count? I maintain that they left it vague on purpose.

I saw no confirmation of anything except opinions in this thread. I've been waiting to see if a clear defining rule would be cited. If it was, I missed it. I've only been shooting USPSA since 1995. Most of us non-open guys gear up and down in the parking lot. This is Nevada. We all carry guns here, and many of us are competing with our normal sidearms. After a match, we go to our vehicle, reload, reholster, and leave with our loaded guns. Next match, we show up, park, unload, gear up, and reholster, then go sign up for the match. Anyone who doesn't know how to load/unload without putting a round in their floorboard is welcome to use a range bay not being used by the match. I don't have a berm at home, either, and while I recognize loading and unloading is a possible time for negligent discharges, I still load and unload carefully at home when required, and in the safest direction available at the time, or is this supposed to be an unspoken secret amongst those of us who carry firearms on a daily basis? I don't see in the rules where the parking lot is part of the match boundaries, in time or geography, especially for those who aren't reloading a sidearm that they carry after the match; though would be happy to be corrected. I see no mention in the rules of what officially constitutes "after the match." Maybe I missed it. Around here, we don't have cold ranges, except for the bays used for a match that requires one. Many of our rifle, shotgun, and submachine gun matches here will have many of us competitors with holstered, loaded sidearms that won't be used. Like I said, this is Nevada. Even our County-operated public range allows loaded sidearms.

Only 20 rounds past 200 yards? Darn. Long range is the best part.

I'd start shooting the 1911 now, and then you can prove to yourself the value of the new sights when you get them installed and you see the improvement under the clock. Meanwhile, you start getting used to the manual of arms under the clock, and it's a good gun for IDPA and USPSA.

I would wager the reason for the 4.1" maximum is for our Canadian friends. That's the shortest they can own.

It would be standard USPSA rules, right? So no sling required that I know of, though I am one of the few guys that runs a sling all the time anyway. I use the Galco Safari Sling, set up for very quick lock-up if I want it for support.

I use Bullseye (a very low-volume powder) in .45 and .38 loads and have never had a squib or anything that didn't sound right. I use a progressive, auto-indexing press. My first question is what is your loading technique? When you say squib, do you mean a case with less powder (inconsistent metering) or no powder (issues with your process)? Is the suggestion of a bulkier powder to make metering less critical in percentage of charge weight (doesn't solve the root problem of consistency and accuracy will still suffer) or to make it easier to verify that there is powder in the case?

Metal tab INSTEAD of funnel. The real mistake by Dillon was sending out the funnel, probably assuming you'd already messed with the metal tab.

I have a very good friend that trims his first. He trims slightly less than normal trim-to length, and then goes to town with his XL1050. The stretch on resizing is apparently repeatable enough.

Production got a lot of new and less rich shooters into USPSA, competing on equal equipment footing and having fun with the rest of us. How many of these resource-limited shooters in Production are shooting major matches and even seeing a chrono stage to have to worry about it? I've never seen a chrono stage at a local club match. I think by the time Production shooters are seeing chrono stages, they can take the time and resources to figure out their PF and make adjustments if necessary.

Failures To Feed, or Failures to Fire? FTF gets used for both, unfortunately. Was the gun closing enough to be able to pull the trigger and the hammer falls?

The A2 front sight is the big-azz tower holding that little sight post. You don't want this in the way if you are going to be using a low-powered optic.

Too bad I'll only make one of those events this year, maybe two. I'm in He-Man Nationals for sure.

Good point. We are so used to calling it a RWR or Tactical Reload, that I forgot its official (maybe newer) name is Loaded Chamber Reload. However, it does say "reload the firearm when it is partially loaded." [Rule 3.4.2] So that would be a loaded chamber for a semi-auto or at least one loaded cartridge remaining in a cylinder. I'm leaning even more heavily to agreeing with the RO's call for a PE.

Honestly, after thinking about this through an entire cup of coffee, and now three reads through the rules, I'm leaning in favor of the RO. I think the intention of the course was to keep track of rounds so as not to be caught with an empty gun. The course description should probably have been written more clearly and instructions should have anticipated the confusion and cleared it ahead of time before any shooter had started. If a shooter failed to keep track, and had an empty gun, I'm now thinking he'd have to do an emergency reload, fire the 12th shot, do an RWR, and boogie.

I apologize for the confusion. I edited my thoughts a few times after post review. My final edit has this conclusion: I now need to review whether or not the shooter can be faulted for failing to keep track of rounds sufficiently so as not to be caught with an empty gun. The shooter was still at a disadvantage during the actual reload itself, but may have been at an advantage in not keeping track of rounds fired during the previous shooting.