MAC702

I've loaded thousands of standard small rifle primers in my AR's. I've never even seen the dimple on an extracted live round like I do with M1's and M14's.

Except that's not the rule as implemented. If you are still behind your cover, you are not advancing into the unknown.

This, and your earlier comment about some types of malfs can go into battery very easily, are very valid and useful to the discussion. Thank you. This is not useful to the discussion, and nothing more than argumentative for argument's sake. There is nothing wrong with a detailed discussion of the rules and their reasonings while possibly formulating a response to the imperfect people who help us by developing these rules.

Was that the new program where it's handed off from UPS to USPS and it takes an extra week to get it?

Has IDPA ever actually given their thinking for why this should be a rule?

I've found the same. I'm mostly using the Dillon for pistol loading anyway, and flake or ball powders. Most of my rifle stuff is loaded on the single-stage and I've had much better results from the Lee Perfect Powder Measure with the extruded powders, anyway.

The striker spring in the Glock is not under full compression and can not ignite a primer, even if the safety plunger was removed, in the event of a single failure. The 1911, with the hammer cocked, if there is a single failure, does have enough energy to ignite a primer. The 1911, as we are required to abandon them, and the Glock, as we are required to abandon them, in the minimum accepted condition, mechanically, are at the same condition of safety. Substitute the Walther PPQ for the Glock, then. You probably can't justify the rule with mechanics. So it's just a rule we have to live with. Most 1911's can't fire that way, either, from a single failure. Was this actually answered definitively: Would a Glock in the same condition, out of battery with ammo somewhere in its frame, been a DQ also?

I have no problems with any of my dozens of CMI or older USGI 20-round magazines. EVERY one of the Korean KCI magazines that I have tested have ejected the ultimate loaded round out of the rifle along with the penultimate fired case. So if you aren't using CMI or USGI 20-round magazines, get them and your problem is probably solved. That said, Springfield Armory Inc factory magazines are made by CMI, so they should be just as good. I recently started doing Multigun, and am shooting in the Heavy Metal Limited with the same M1A that I shoot in other military rifle competitions and the occasional High-Power match. USPSA rules that the sidearms for this can be Limited-10 configuration, as long as they are at least a .44, so 10-rounders in your 1911 would be fine for that. While I don't think there is a huge advantage (there may be some) to a longer magazine body on the rifle, like there clearly is when using a 10-round 1911 mag when 8-rounders are the limit, I, too, would not want to push that rule, especially considering that a quality 20-round magazine is ubiquitous. I may have to pick up a couple of the slick stainless ones and give them a try.

So I tell my handy friend in L.A. to look out for a jogging stroller or wheelchair for me, and I tell him how I want to modify it for a shooting cart. He texts me a link an hour later and says: "Why don't you just buy this one?" He sends me a link to a Rugged shooting cart that's been in my own Las Vegas Craig's List for almost two weeks now. I kept searching for jogging strollers never once thinking that an actual shooting cart might be on there. Got it for less than half price, and it's in excellent condition. Ha.

Sorry but your example is irrelevant. The rules spell out clearly that ammo in the gun without safety on is a DQ. You can argue that the rule is written wrong, you can talk to the MDs, you can choose not shoot the match. However it is not as if that rule wasn't clear, announced long in advanced and equally enforced. I made this point already buy you must have missed it, I had to DQ someone at the same match for placing a 2011 type gun in the dump bucket as it came from the holster, empty chamber, safety off, mag inserted. I don't think that makes sense, and expressed that to the MD/RM at the end of the match. However, it isn't my rule book, I play by it and enforce it equally. My opinion on the matter is irrelevant. How sure are you it can't fire? What if the bullet was stuck in a different position with part of slide locked against the primer? What if it was stuck on the ramp in a way that would chamber it when touched? The only gun I KNOW can't fire is the one I've made sure is empty or which has is safety engaged, and even the second one is not 100%. If you don't like that sort of rule, don't shoot the match. If you shoot the match then you commit yourself to shoot by the rules. I have not once argued that this was not a rule violation. Please do not confuse my posts with the posts of others. I've followed the OP in discussion of whether or not this was an unsafe pistol. I have also asked what criteria are or should be used in differentiating between different pistol types while making this determination for future rules changes or adoptions, as I believe was the intent of the OP.

I don't think that argument works. I wouldn't want to stand in front of any gun being cleared..... There's being "cleared" and then there's being "cleared." The typical one pulls a live round out of the chamber. This one would have dropped an unchambered, unshootable round out of the magazine well. I'd stand in front of it before standing on a sidewalk near busy traffic.

Like shooting a hostage? That is a make-believe safety violation, a no shoot it placed there to act as a possible trap for the shooter and it doesn't actually bleed when shot. A safety violation can result in real people bleeding all over the ground and a that is a completely different story then a cardboard hostage. You completely ignored the rest of my post which also describes how the pistol in question CANNOT fire, and therefore is the same kind of make-believe safety violation, which is why we go to the imperfect rules that govern the sport instead of making judgment calls all day long.

Like shooting a hostage? While this is a "sport," it has its roots in practical shooting. Some things are not so much unsafe in the sporting event as they would be in real life. We have varying levels of penalties in attempting to compensate for that. A pistol that can NOT fire is not "unsafe." So we only have the rules of the sport to go to. I simply don't know the rules of Multigun well enough to answer the question of the rules in the thread, but what Jesse has ALSO done is ask for a discussion on what SHOULD it be. This is a fair question, and when the posts have stayed on this topic, I've enjoyed seeing the discussion. If a fully loaded Glock can be dumped, then we have some good questions about what else can be dumped. We have all these rules about other gun designs, and the sport is about the rules instead of just the safety.

It should matter IF the safety is capable of being engaged. When out of battery, the safety cannot be engaged. Can a 1911 be dumped at slide-lock if a loaded magazine is in it? If a Glock can be dumped while fully loaded, can it be dumped if out of battery?

Perfect timing. I've been looking at the Rugged Cart, and just don't quite like them well enough. I've been toying with getting an old used jogging stroller from Craigslist, too, and making it do exactly what I want. Now, you have me seriously considering converting a wheelchair or similar. I see a lot of advantages to that kind of design.

Bingo. You can ground a Glock that is ready to fire, but you can't ground a jammed-up 1911 that has no round in the chamber? Can't you ground a 1911 that still has the magazine in it, but the slide locked back? In which case, I would apply that condition to this pistol. I just got into Multigun and am shooting in the Heavy Metal Limited division. My plan for grounding my shotgun is to pump it open and dump it. Do I have to engage the safety if I do this? Does it matter if there are rounds in the magazine? If pumped open, it would put a round into the action, ready to chamber. Wouldn't this be similar?

I'm new to the rules of grounding guns having only recently gotten in to Multigun, so haven't even tried to look it up yet, so when you put it this way, I personally would not consider it an unsafe condition.

The biggest problem with safes in garages is security. Passers by at the right moment see it. Many safes have been stolen from garages because it is relatively easy (as far as thefts go) to get in and dump the safe right into a pickup. Some garages even supply tools to do it. That's not to say don't do it, but be aware of its extra necessary precautions.

NIcely put together. I'm still trying to understand the reasoning for the rule, and I usually at least understand the other argument even when I side against it. This one, I still don't get.

I'd wager that a minority of IDPA shooters are actually carrying daily the gun they are competing with anyway, though I am one of them.

While that is somewhat my reaction as well, to be fair, he did not say he sent himself home. He did not DQ himself. He merely shook himself up a bit and decided to stop himself for that stage and take the penalties. His call.

It is the Match Director's job to see that everyone is doing the same thing in IDPA. I wouldn't hesitate to bring it to the MD's attention because for the same reason that the Classifier string begins that way is the same reason any stage requiring a weak hand start should begin that way: many guns do not have a safety that can be activated by the weak hand safely.

You're in good company. It was an American Rifleman article, IIRC, and left out the two most obvious differences, in my opinion. They talked about the higher pressure problems, without any numbers, and they never even hinted at how much more expensive it is.

If in the same start position as that string of the Classifier, the safety should not be required to be on, for the same reason it is not required to be on during this string of the Classifier. This would no doubt be why the gun is already in a firing grip and pointed mostly downrange.

If the gun is in the holster, then yes. You would be drawing with your strong hand anyway, the same one you would use to disengage the safety before transferring to the weak hand for shooting. In the Classifier, there is a string that is shot weak-hand-only. The gun starts held in the weak hand, pointed downward at 45 degrees, with the finger off the trigger. For this string only, the safety is permitted to not be engaged prior to the start.