ctay

1) Questioning the idea does not make one an "old guard" curmudgeon that doesn't like fun. That type of attitude only serves to make people defensively take sides rather than have an open dialog. Cut it out. 2) I think there are a lot of people (like myself) that would like to see this work but are apprehensive because there are some legitimate real challenges that will have to be addressed before it can work without having a negative effect on handgun shooters. The one that worries me the most is one handed shooting challenges. USPSA has quite of few of these - not just strong hand / weak hand but port and prop manipulation that I don't think can be safely done while holding and shooting a long gun. For those that support the idea, do you mind taking a moment to address how you would handle those situations and further, why any suggested modifications will not adversely effect those not shooting a PPC? It seems clear to me that there will need to be some trade offs to bring PPC's into USPSA Handgun competitions. Those trade offs will need to be evaluated and valued - if you feel the cost is small you may be for it. However there will be some that feel the trade off is too much for "what you are getting" and won't support the idea. In order to have an honest conversation you have to address this. Chris

My advice - Race Master for open, limited. The ability to move the mag to exactly where you need it has a benefit in these divisions. (ball joint will go loose over time though so make sure to check it often). Racer for production, single stack. The location requirements take away the advantage of the adjustments on the RM. They work the same otherwise. I actually think my Racers are a little quicker as the plastic is slightly "slick" compared to the metal. Never had any worry about one breaking - they are pretty tough.

Ignoring road blocks can cause some pretty serious accidents. There are some legitimate issues that need to be resolved before something like this can happen. Pointing out the challenges does not make one a Luddite.

3) Table starts. At the 2015 High Desert Classic we had two table starts and I believe that only one of them would have accommodated a long gun. The table must be long enough and there needs to be sufficient room for the long gun to sit before coming into contact with some other prop. There are likely other *real* issues that need to be dealt with to make this happen. So far, it seems that the most likely solution to these simple issues is to just change the stage - ie all PPC's always face up range, don't use the table - not sure how to handle one handed hanging stages. While that may seem to work - are we still really shooting the same match if you have to change all the start positions and key elements of the stage to do it? This needs some real thought that isn't clouded by how much fun this would be. Fun is great but there are other considerations - safety and consistency among them. Moreover, as CO has demonstrated, once a division becomes "provisional" it is very difficult get rid of. In fact, offering something then taking it away is a great way to DAMAGE the goodwill of the org. Just my .02. Chris

I understand both sides - and having been an advocate for CO I understand the frustration when someone opposes a change when you can't understand their reasoning. PPC could be really fun but it is critical that we think this though because this is a fundamental change to the sport - Long guns in what has always been hand gun matches. Here are the things I would need addressed before we could run PPC at our club. 1) Biggest is start position. You simply cannot safely (and reasonably) start facing up range while holding a long gun. There may be safe ways to do it but not within the "reasonably accommodate all types of shooters" dynamic. Simply too many people that don't have the control to be trusted facing up range with a long gun. Start positions will have to change which, though seeming simple, adds a layer of complexity to the match that doesn't exist now. Not insurmountable but it does exist. 2) One handed shooting. There have been numerous one hand shooting stages at national and area matches that simply cannot be done (safely) with a long gun. For example, in the 2014 High Desert Classic we had a stage where you held onto a grip and hung out to each side to engage targets one handed. Just can't be done consistently and safely with a long gun. More examples are port hold open stages - which are fairly common. Some could be done by holding open the port with the barrel, some can't. How can you write one universal rule to manage all the potential situations? There is more but I somehow accidentally posted this when I was hitting the tab button... Sigh...

100% support from me. I think it would be fun and I think it would bring more people into the game. I'm not sold that it can be run alongside a pistol match but I have an open mind.

I like the idea personally but I think there are more match related problems than what we have identified here. For instance, gun in a box stages. I can build a box that will fit all the pistols I will see but not one for rifles. You could use dump barrel type thing for rifles but that does interfere with the design and setup. We are all well setup for pistol matches - be it a revolver or an open gun. That is why the addition of CO didn't make much difference. We are not all well setup for the small but real challenges of adding a rifle so I suspect it will be more difficult than just adding another division like CO. I think PPC is a great idea, I just don't think it necessarily belongs in a pistol match.

Where did you find it? I've been looking for one without much luck.

We had JROTC at the High Desert Classic this year (working for donations) and it was a bit of a mixed bag. Some of the kids were real go getters - always picking brass and doing some resetting. Some others not so much. Day two had about 1/4 of the kids no show. Competitors were great and I think we raised over $2400 for their JROTC. Really was cool to see everyone pitch in so much! For me, I don't think it is worth raising prices to get them out unless you for sure have a crack squad that is going to really make life easy for competitors. Working for tips is a little different though I think. I also know a few of the kids got really interested in shooting USPSA after watching it for two days. Chris

I want a reason to buy a SIG MPX...

Just to add my experience, I used a D-60 exclusively at the Hard as Hell match two weeks ago. Ran 100% - though I only use factory ammo. It feels super light and balanced even with a full 60 rounds in it and I didn't notice any difference in my transitions. Moreover, it was very convenient when shooting in tunnels and around obstacles as it is basically the same length as a 30 round mag. Pricey, but completely worth it. I'll be getting another for sure. Chris

M&P core for me too.

I switched over from my eotech to a cmore and have actually really liked it. The smaller "bulk" around the glass seems to help on clays.

That the feed lips need tuning to be consistent. There are some YouTube videos by Jim Lambert that go over the mags and I've found some posts on other forums from tooth and nail that have helped too. Still not there though.

Brought mine to the hard as hell match this last weekend. Gun ran great but had lots of trouble with magazines. Easy spent 250+ seconds just trying to get it to load the first rounds. I'm spending my time right now learning to tune these things to feed so I don't have that pleasure again. Upside, after it feed the first two shells or so it was great!

All anecdotal of course but I spoke to a sponsor at a major match very recently that prefers random for the very reason motosapiens mentions - product into the hands of regular competitors. They are more likely to appreciate it, use it and most of all - talk about it.

Why even score the match? Wouldn't want anybody to get their feelings hurt because they got a lower placement.You could call it "The Safe Zone" match. I bet it would be a grand success. Why do trophies have the place you finished on them? Because trophies are related to your performance in the match. Why doesn't the mag loader you picked up from the prize table have the place you finished on it? Because it does not relate to your performance in the match. They are two different things. Again, trophies have meaning associated with order of finish - prizes do not. No reason to conflate the two. Nothing "safe space" about that - just logical. I don't have a problem with a match that wants to arbitrarily connect the two - that their prerogative. I don't think it's necessary to denigrate those who don't.

Understand. Though if Ben is going to stick around and shoot he can't use the unicorn. I believe it is heavier than 35oz.

It is silly to act like a dot doesn't make much difference. Anyone who has spent any time behind one can see that it is an advantage. I really wish people would move on from the passive aggressive poo slinging at this division and just give it some time to see what happens.

I'm sure missing won't be a problem! Stage design will help with that! Quick calculation on round count: Pistol 213 Rifle 194 Shotgun 101 Pistol or Shotgun 13 Slug 6 I assumed 10 rounds for each spinner.

I feel the same way about gun raffles. Don't choose a random number! What are we kindergartners? The first person to buy a raffle ticket should get the gun - order of purchase. Of course, then no one other than the first person would buy a ticket and the gun raffle would lose money and gun raffles would probably stop altogether... that may not work. Trophies have meaning associated with order of finish - prizes do not. No reason to conflate the two.

Just ordered on the lightening deal - finally something I can use on there! Funny story - I've been wet tumbling for a while now but reading this thread made me want to try adding a little car wax to the mix to see how it would do. I didn't have any "Armor All wash and wax" but I did have some "Turtle Wax ICE Liquid Wax" in the car wash box so I figured I would give it a try. Throw in 900 38SC brass, 15 lbs of pins, Dawn, 45 full of lemi shine and a decent squirt of the Turtle Wax Ice - seal it up and ran it while I was out for about 2 hours. Came back to find that the wax didn't agree with the brass at all and had turned everything a dull purple. And I mean EVERYTHING. Brass, pins, inside of the tube - even stained my hands as soon as I touched them. I had to separate everything out to scrub the drum clean(ish). I did several cycles with just the pins by themselves - replacing the water several times along the way. Water stopped running out dark purple after about 45 mins of running then rinsing. Once I had the pins and the drum clean I ran the brass for another hour without the wax - changing the water and soap out every 10 minutes or so - and it finally came out clean. Whole process took about 3 hours and I totally destroyed the plastic sink in the garage - black and purple streaks everywhere and the faucet looks like it belongs on an oil rig. The Mrs is not happy. Moral of the story - not all car wax is created equal.

A range I belong to has an "action pistol" match twice a week. It can be fun but safety and structure are very much lacking because there is no official rule set. It does serve a purpose, for whatever reason there is a contingent of people that are intimidated by USPSA. "Too strict rules" "too hard stages" or just the competition is too stiff. However, once somebody has shot a few action pistol matches there is a portion that wants to see what else is out there. That is exactly how I got into USPSA. I shot some action pistol, did well, and someone suggested I try USPSA. Now I'm hooked and I basically never shoot action pistol. USPSA had the competition and structure I was looking for.

It isn't so much about being able to aim with the dot at the farthest edges but rather seeing the dot and being able to bring it back to the center. If the dot is off the glass you have to do the dot dance to try to find it before you can bring it to the center. I ended up with a 2.5 dot DeltaPoint Pro. The dot is very small but at full intensity I never lost it in the two matches I've used it in. I've actually gotten used to it.

Can't disagree with that. Gun is always loaded.