kellyn

Benellis are more reliable (although I have seen Benellis that would not work reliably), they cycle faster and they are lighter - I'm not sure that lighter is an advantage. They also kick much more than a Remington or a Browning. Benelli also offers much more support for 3 gunning than remington does. I'm not sure that one is better than the other. I prefer to shoot my remington (which was reliable at SOF) but I'm going to give the Benelli a try next year.

Smith Enterprises used to make a same plane aperature but I'm not sure if they do anymore (it was kick ass!). Ashley Outdoors does make one but I think the apertures are too large.

On Benelli shotguns, one can have a live shell sitting on the follower under the closed bolt. The shell is not in the mag tube, it is on the follower itself. Once the shot in the chamber is fired, the next round loaded into the chamber will be the one resting on the follower. A Benelli advantage.

Last time I talked to Leatham, he was running V V 340 in his open gun.

You can shoot super-whimpy loads in an FN w/ its adjustable gas system. Of course, you have to handload. I agree w/ Patrick. Don't buy a Norinco on principle alone. Plus their quality sucks. get a Colt, Armalite. DPMS or Bushmaster. Don't get a Mini-14. Like FNs, Mini-14s haven't had nearly the amount of development that ARs have. They are less accurate, less ergonomic, and less cool. Plus 30 rd mags are more expensive. be sure to get a flattop so you can shoot both irons and a score. I suggest starting out w/ a scoped AR. Bushnell low-powered variables are cheap and good.

I'll really let you know what I think after I shoot one at SOF and the World Tactical 3-Gun championship. I think the FN is a good rifle but it does not have anywhere near the development that the AR has had over the past 15 years. Triggers, barrels, handguards, sights, stocks etc etc etc for ARs have been highly developed in both highpower and 3 gunning. FNs (and everything else for that matter) cannot - at this moment - be said to be the equal of the AR. But I would not be shooting one at SOF if I did not think I could be competitive w/ it. The .308 is not an advantage in USPSA 3 gunning. .308s might be competitive in SOF and the Myst Mtn. or local 3 gun matches. .308s have too much recoil when shooting at major pf even w/ a good comp. The advantage you get from shooting major is outweighed by the speed at which you can shoot a minor .223. .308s are also MUCH more expensive to shoot. .223s are cheap! Do you want to shoot limited or open?

Before they allowed comps in Limited, I used a "caveman" comp: lead. In highpower, heavy ARs using lead weights in the butt and under the handguards are the norm. I adopted this in practical shooting. For 2 years, I shot the Mystery Mtn match w/ a 15 lb AR. You want to talk about no recoil! The front sight hardly moved. It was as effective as any comp that I have seen on a limited rifle. Luckily, I only had to carry the rifle from my truck to line.

As I am about to embark at an attempt to shoot major, I have to say that there should be a place for the .308 in practical shooting! Plus it is much more fun to hit steel w/ a major round. While I agree that .223 has proven itself a worthy combat round (although you wouldn't catch me deer hunting w/ one!) and it almost completely dominates 3 gun, I am not yet ready for such a change. Perhaps I am just nostalgic - having shot a whole bunch of .308s in highpower. A shooter that can master the recoil and other disadvantages should at least have the illusion of a possible reward.

I don't know of any kydex pouches for an M1A but I just got some Buchanan bagworks nylon pouches (www.3gungear.com) for an FN and they rock! Well-made, good retention, SOF legal and fast.

I agree. Particularly w/ iron sights which depend a great deal on one's vision. I have tried the ashley outdoor same plane sight. It's much better than an A2 but I think the apertures are too large.

I have to disagree, aty least for my own shooting. I have lost no speed on closer targets using a skinny front sight. If anything, I think skinny posts are faster up close as well. With a skinny post you spend less time figuring out where the tip of the post actually is b/c it is so much smaller. With a huge post, I tend to stare at it trying to figure out where the bullet will strike on the tip of the post. With the skinny post, I just put it on the target and shoot - no need to worry if that 75 yard was an A or a C if the post was on the A, it was an A.

Welcome Double tap. I agree that allowing scopes would increase participation in 3 gun matches. How much, I am not sure. That is why I brought the topic up. The purists, myself included, feel that there are other concerns beyond shooter participation. Shooter participation is VERY important but it should not be the end all be all of rule making. Philosophically, I feel that there should be a place for iron sighted rifles in practical shooting. They are certainly more difficult to master than scoped rifles but isn't that the point of limited? I feel that most (not all) of the shooters who complain about iron-sighted rifles do so because they are unwilling to take the time to actually learn how to shoot them. Some shooters do have definite limitations shooting iron-sighted rifles due to their eyes etc. but a handicapped minority should not control the rule-making for eveybody else. Shooting a scope is easier and more fun but (to me) not as satisfying. Now if USPSA/IPSC or any other 3-gun shooting body wants to make scopes legal for limited, I will dutifully order a Leupold 1.5-5X and mount it in my AR but I don't have to like it.

I did not care for the modified A2 birdcage as it came from EGW. In my experience and with my loads, it "overcompensated" and blew the muzzle dramatically downward. I could watch the sight go from the A zone to beaneath the target. I had to have the hole cut to a greater diameter. Even then it has - as Pat noted - a lot of vibration. Since SOF has broadened the comp rule I would steer clear. I've never shot a McArthur, I'll have to check that out.

Don't know. I've never shot a slug (or anything else)through a rifled shotgun barrel. I usually compete w/ remington reduced recoil slugs in a smooth remington or benelli barrel. The slugs are surprisingly accurate in the remington barrel. Head shots at 50 would be no problem.

My AS front post is .055. It sounds like the bushmaster one is just fine. When shooting offhand/standing, I do raise my strong elbow up. The elbow is nearly parallel to the ground but not quite. I do this mostly to create a strong and deep pocket in the shoulder to support the buttplate. The pocket is much more pronounced when the elbow is raised. I think this helps the shooter absorb recoil and allows for faster splits. On the other hand, it makes the shooter wider as my elbows are sticking out. This may (or may not) be of concern in a tactical situation as opposed to a match. My weak elbow is likewise nearly parallel to the ground. A comment on icer's 50 yard zero. That is a good way to zero the rifle but check it at distance. Don't assume that dead on at 50 is dead on at 225. Always check. (Edited by kellyn at 9:42 pm on Aug. 22, 2001)

I'm with Pat. I talk to everyone that will talk back. You get different ideas, perspectives, strategies. You don't have to use them but other's ideas only add to your data base. Sometimes others may have built a better mousetrap. I try to not get too caught up in plans. A plan is important but sometimes after the buzzer goes off, your shooting can take you far beyond the limitations of your plan.

I have shot the fabled rob leatham six inch .45 trophy match. It's pretty cool for a stock gun. I think I prefer a 5 inch gun though. Maybe just because I am used to a 5 inch but I like the snappier feeling. Rob actually has 2 six inchers, one w/ a 12 lb spring and another w/ a heavier (16 or 18 I think) spring. The 12 lb spring was my favorite - noticably snappier. Neither was trimmed of any weight. I only put about 75 rounds through them, not enough to make any definitive conclusions but I'm not about to make any changes.

Lincoln, I just like to point w/ my weak index finger. It feels more natural to me and I think I have better transitions between targets. I know I shoot skeet better when I point and I just use the same technique when shooting a rifle from the standing postion. It really is a personal preference issue though. if you don't like it, don't do it.

At least one of the two GMs that Steve mentioned (Craig Stapp) did make it to GM shooting a Glock. He had the audacity to beat me in the AZ Police games w/ his Glock while I was shooting a Limited gun based on an STI. Not very nice of him :-)

Rifle "snaps" at 25 yards at the head and at 50 yards at the body. From the ready (low or high) fire 1 shot at the target in 1 1/2 seconds. I liven this up by shooting at 3 to 100 yards. I also practice shooting pairs and multiple targets. Rifle Ten: IPSC target is placed 300 meters from shooter. There are five firing lines: 300, 275, 250, 225 and 200. At the go the shooter fires 2 shots at the 300 meter line freestyle (read prone!) and then shoots 2 shots from the next line and so on. All freestyle. Rifle Bounce: 3 pepper poppers; 1 at 100, 1 at 200, 1 at 300. 3 shooting boxes next to each other. No more than 6 rounds. At signal shooter engages 1 popper from each box freestyle. It usually works out to shoot the 100 yards popper offhand, the 200 popper sitting, knelling or squatting and the 300 from prone. Good basic drills!

I can't wait to hear that answer! I have had a few more random thougts. - Develop a good and CONSISTENT stock weld, that way sight alignment is easy to master. On an AR in the prone postion, I rest my right nostril on the charging handle in a certain way. I can't really describe the feeling but I can always tell if I am not holding the rifle consistently. Once you get a good stock weld, alignment falls naturally into place. - When shooting offhand, hold the rifle near the far end of the handguard and point w/ the weak hand index finger (this almost cams your wrist as in the world-famous reverse weaver stance!). Don't hold the rifle near the receiver - as many seem to do. It slows your transition times when your weak arm is all scrunched up (scrunched is a legal term). - Get a grip extender which places the AR grip farther from the trigger if you have to fold up your trigger finger to contact the trigger. - I like the Gunsite rifle/carbine school drills as basic practice. - Lots of matches require you to run around. Start 25 to 50 yards from your rifle, sprint to it, and then mow down 5 chickens at 200 meters w/ 5 shots. Sure, everyone on the range will think you're crazy but if you can do that, you'll win every long range rifle stage ever! Forcibly exhale before you shoot. - Don't forget to breathe. Visual acuity rapidly declines w/ a lack of oxygen. I shoot IPSC/SOF long range shots w/ the same cadence that I learned in rattle battle at Camp Perry. Let your breath out and you have about 8-10 seconds of ideal visual acuity. Blast away for that 8-10 seconds and then take a good breath. repeat.

Random Thoughts on Shooting an Iron Sighted AR. P.S. Nik, thanks for making me think of this stuff. I am switching over to irons myself for the World Championship 3 gun in Sept and have noticed that a year of shooting w/ a scope has not helped my iron sighted rifle shooting. Iron-sighted rifles have greater differences to scoped rifles than iron sighted pistols do to scoped pistols. 1) Sights. If you can, get a same plane aperture i.e. the zero does not shift between the flip-up aperture as on a stock AR15A2 sight. On a stock A2, the zeroes can be VERY different. Ashley Outdoor and Smith Ent. make same plane apertures. I switch apertures depending on the course and distance to target. I even switch apertures during the course of fire but I am one of very few who do this. If you don't want a new aperture, zero w/ the smaller one and use it on any shots past 25 yards. I have trouble focusing on the front sight when the aperture gets too big. Get an Accuracy Speaks front sight which is skinnier than the stock sight. It provides a much more precise sight picture. 2) Zeros. Don't zero at 25 yards. Zero the rifle either 1 1/2 to 2 inches high at 100 yards. Then go back and check it at 25. And then shoot groups at 200 yards. If you're off at 25 , you're probably way off at 100. Don't be loath to move the sights. If the gun is not zeroed, put a fork in you b/c you're done. Don't forget to hold high at close targets to compensate for the difference between the sights and the muzzle. 3) Postions. Master the basic shooting postions especially prone and standing and how to shoot from barricades/rests. Always shoot from a rest if you can. Almost always shoot from the steadiest postion that you can (prone or off a rest) unless you lose too much time doing so. When prone, use the magazine as a monopod rest. 4) Get a trigger job or good single stage trigger kit. stock triggers suck! 5) Make sure that you have good sight alignment. Put the post in the center of the aperture. As for sight picture, I like to hold center on paper targets and 6 o'clock on steel. 6) Do not HOSE. You cannot hose down small rifle targets. You must have a good sight picture and trigger squeeze for each shot! 7) Practice on harder targets than you will shoot at the match. I shoot a lot at 200 meter silohuette chickens. Good luck! I'm sure I'll think of some more stuff and then post it.

When loading the limited shotgun, I think there are a few things to keep in mind: 1) Get a easyloader if you have an 1100/1187. If you're loading a Benelli, make sure that the shell is fully seated or it will pop back on the shell carrier preventing you from loading anymore shells. 2) Look as you load. Watch that shell go into the magtube. Don't try to do it by feel alone. I believe that this is critical! 3) I pull my support arm back and turn the shotgun upside down. I try to maintain my normal firing grip w/ my weak hand and load w/ the strong hand. It feels weird b/c your weak elbow is up against your body and your weak wrist is twisted but it's faster. The shotgun rests across my chest. 4) The fastest loads come from the side saddle or arm-band b/c the shell is closest to the loading gate. 5) Buy shotshell holder from Buchanan Bag Works in Scottsdale AZ. He makes the best stuff bar none. He is a 3 gunner who actually uses his stuff. Choate shell holders are good but I could never master picking up and holding 2 shells in my hand 100% of the time. 6) Gunsite Instructor Mike Hughes is the only person I have ever seen consistently load a shotgun quickly w/ the weak hand - but his loads are not as quick as Bennie Cooley who loads w/ the strong hand.

I am merely a driver, not a mechanic! I don't do too much of my own gunsmithing (that's why God invented Accuracy Speaks). A new barrel is certainly the easiest way to go. It is not too difficult to find Remington barrels.

I agree w/ icer. A Ghost-ring rear sight and post front sight is a good setup. My 1187 has a williams rear sight w/ the screw-in aperture removed and a CPM fiber-optic front sight. While I don't care for the fiber-optic and a pistol, I really like it on the shotgun. Other good sights include MMCs and the aformentioned Scattergun Tech trak-lok (sic?). You can shoot a bead on steel w/ no handicap but the bead tends to fall short when shooting slugs. I absolutely hate the ghost-ring or "deer" slug sights when shooting flying clay - too much to look at. Cut that barrel! Cut it to 22 inches and get interchangeable chokes. Since you can only have 8 shots, why have a barrel that is sticking out 6-7 inches past the mag tube, hitting everything in sight? There tends to be some tight shots in shotgun stages. There were several spots in the 3-gun Natls where a long gun was very unwiedly and I understand that there were even tighter shots in Kyle's match.