kellyn

I've never "outrun" my shotgun, Benelli or Remington. I've never seen anyone "outrun" their shotgun at a 3 gun match, Voight and Miculek included. It may be an issue w/ side matches with closely arrayed targets like a plate rack but I am not to concerned w/ a .12 or .13 split in normal 3 gunning. More importantly is how fast can one load the Winchester or Browning. 3 gun Shotgunning is about loading! I finally saw one of the mythical Winchester SX2 practicals at a gun store in Mesa. It seemed to be well made. It was much heavier than my Benelli and even heavier than my Remington 1187. It had a nice fiber optic front sight and weaver rail (for a dot) but it did not have a ghost ring rear sight as does the winchester in the article. Instead it had a 10/22 esq rear sight on the barrel. I don't know if this is good or bad as a lot of really good 3 gunner have forgone the ghost ring. In fact Todd Salmon uses a 10/22 rear sight for slug shooting on his Benelli and I can't think of a better shotgunner. It seemed like a very competitive shotgun. We'll see........

I have to differ w/ icer's opinion of Thermolds. I've used them exclusively for about 4 years and have never had a problem. But again, make sure they work in your rifle.

Erik, I concur w/ your assessments of the match. While I love a good run and gun stage (particularly since I tend to be pretty good at them), I would have prefered a more balanced match. A big match like the Classic should be a test of a wide variety of shooting skills: speed and movement certainly but accuracy and distance should not have been so excluded. I never saw you!

I asked Rob why he shoots CDP and not ESP and he said "Because I'm not a pussy. I want the challenge to be as hard as possible."

Buchanan bag Works at http://www.3gungear.com. The ultimate bag!

Best 3 points I've ever shot!

HA! I know exactly where 4 Peaks is. Nothing like a Kilt Lifter or Oatmeal Stout to ease the pain. They used to have an awesome garlic and clam pizza (!!!) but my wife and I were the only ones to ever order it. Sublime bar food!

Hey, I KNOW WHERE LONG WONG'S IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It depends on what role the dot would play and what kind of matches I was shooting. If all the shooting was under 100 yards, I might favor the Cmore b/c it has a bigger dot. If the dot was to serve as a secondary sight for close range targets in conjunction w/ a scope, I would go with the CMore w/ a 4 or 6 MOA dot. If I were going to rely on the dot as my main sight, I would go w/ the Holosight because it is easier to zero, it has a 1 MOA dot, and Mike Voight likes them. I wish you would tell Mike and Jerry that I am a national contender so they would be polite enough to let me win.

Sure, a weaver-style rail mounted on the handguard could accept a CMore as well. I tried one on mine but I liked the Aimpoint better because it was closer to the bore. There really was little difference though.

Pat, I just reread your times. 2.7 seconds! You rock!

Never say no to Derrick!

Now that I have successfully located Casey's, you can call off the hounds! Please, no GQ!

I think I would go w/ a 4 MOA dot on the Cmore. I detest Trijicon Reflex sights. They are hard to look through and they have major parallax. Why anyone would have one, I have no idea. ACOGs are a different story, they dominate SOF. I like the doughnut better than the triangle. I'm not sure why, just a personal preference thing. This is what I can remember about the top guys stuff. Jerry Miculek and Jim Clark use low powered Bushnell variables as their sole sight. Jake Kempton uses a Burris 1.5-6X scope with an Aimpoint mounted off to the right. He used to use a Leupold 3-9X with the Aimpoint. I've seen Voight use a Holosight and low powered variables. Don Bednorz uses a CMore low-powered variable scope which I have never seen for sale anywhere. I expect to see some of the Zeiss scopes that Even mentioned showing up. They are sweet! Jon, there is no problem with cheekweld when shooting a dot mounted directly to the right of the normal scope or mounted at 2 o'clock on the handguard. You simply raise your right elbow which rotates the rifle to the left. Your face remains in the same place and the stock turns - not vice versa.

william, larkin and moore in northern Scottsdale has an awesome collection of fine double shotguns and some nice hunting rifles if you are into that sort of thing. It's pretty close to Dillon. 1911 Heaven (Dobson and Elliot) in Chandler probably has the biggest selection of competition guns - made on site. Arizona Sportsman has 2 stores, 1 in Mesa, the other in Phoenix. Sometimes they have some interesting stuff - sometimes not. Same with Caswell's Indoor Shooting range in Mesa, just off hwy 60 and Country club. Legendary Guns (19th Ave just north of Camelback) shares a strip mall with the Wilderness (makers of tactical nylon equipment). Legendary always has some interesting stuff, particulalry if you're into cowboy stuff. Finally, what would a trip to Mesa be without going to see Derrick Martin at Accuracy Speaks at the Rio Salado? A true must see.

You'd have to really crank a .243 to make major ( a 107 at 3177.5 fps). Ruptured cases, blown primers, cracked bolts, it wouldn't be pretty. The ultimate major rifle cartridge has yet to be developed or used. A .25 or 6.5 with a 110-120 grain bullet? A 110 grainer has to go 3090.9 fps and a 120 has to go 2833.3. A 6.5 X 55mm anyone? A .260 remington? Still a lot more recoil than a .223. With the current power factors, I don't see .223 getting knocked off the top of the heap in USPSA 3 gunning. Plus .223 is so much cheaper to shoot. I disagree with the notion that .223s are less effective on long range steel. Modern .223 bullets (69 or 77 gr. Sierra, 75 AMAX) are as wind resistant as most .308 bullets when fired at .308 Winchester velocities. They are close to .243s and 6.5s - which only really start to show significant advantages at ranges far beyond most 3 gunning. Luckily some matches (SOF, Myst Mtn. 3gun, WC 3 Gun) don't have power factors. .308 is major, .223 minor. Bring on the 110 grain bullets!

Sixes can certainly be competitive long range cartridges especially with Sierra's 107 grain bullet (if you have a fast twist barrel). Jim Clark Jr has relied on a .243 to win the Steel Safari match and Tubb has used a .243 in highpower (shooting at 600 yards) and silohuette (out to 500 meters). He has since gone to a 6.5-08. However, sixes burn barrels even faster than 6.5s.

The first gun you bought was an AYA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope everything has not been downhill since. When my Dad retired from the Az Game and Fish Department, everyone put in $$ and got him a 16 gauge AYA. Talk about a sweet quail-chukar-pheasant gun! I can't wait to retire! (T minus 21 years and counting) Don't feel too bad about the pad. Rob Leatham ported a Kreighoff. You can both share a chamber in hell. :-)

The 6.5x284 is the .284 Winchester case necked down from 7mm to 6.5mm. The common name of the cartridge is 6.5 by (X) 284. The .284 was designed by Winchester in 1963. It was designed to get 30/06 velocity out of a short action. It is shorter and fatter than the 30/06, .270 etc but has roughly the same powder capacity. It also has a rebated rim (the rim is the same as the 06 family). What is interesting about the .284 case is that it is very similar to the PPC case which has been so successful in benchrest shooting. The PPC is also short and fat. It is theorized that short fat cases are inherently more accurate because the powder column is ignited more uniformly than longer cases. If this is true, it bodes well for the new .300 Winchester short magnum. The .284 was immediately wildcatted. In fact, my dad built my mom a .25-284 in the late 60s. She has been hunting with it ever since. The 6.5X284 is a marriage between the ballistically superior 6.5 bullets to the theoretically superior .284 case. 6.5 bullets have the highest sectional density and ballistic coeffecients and are the best for long range applications. At equal velocities, a 6.5 will outperform most other (if not all) calibers including a 7mm or .30 cal. Put simply, a 6.5X284 has the external ballistics of a .300 Magnum with the recoil of a .308. Hornaday and Norma make 6.5X284 cases now but they are expensive. I'm not aware of any factory rifles though. A 6.5 X 06 (30/06 case necked to 6.5) has the same velocity and is a good "poor man's" substitute. Does one need a 6.5 X 284 to compete at long range? No. A 6.5 X 308 (.308 necked to 6.5), .300 magnum, .270 or even the old reliable .308 Winchester will do. The 6.5 X 284 is probably the ultimate however. It kicks much less than the magnums and shoots much flatter and has less wind drift than a normal .308 Winchester. A 6.5 X284 probably burns barrels just as fast as a .300 Mag though. You'd be lucky to get 3000 rounds out of one. It is the .38 Super of the long range world. I don't have one as I don't compete in 1000 yard matches anymore but if I were serious about long range sniper matches, that is what I would have.

Kevin, a normal national match front sight is just fine - thinner is not needed. I've never heard of a Simpson sight. When you are asking about hot setups are you refering to the limited or open guys? As for Holosights, Mike Voight has spoken very highly of them and has relied on them as his sole sight. I can't recall seeing him use the 2X adapter though. I'd like to try one but I can't imagine using one as my main sight unless the shots were 100 yards and under. Voight has said they are good on steel out to 300. The favorite reticle is the 1 MOA dot in the circle. Jon has an interesting point about the Aimpoint and being able to mount it so that you can use irons through the Aimpoint. Several of my Gunsite instructor amigos like this as does my friend Keith Manning. I absolutely hate it. So look at one before you try it. Personal preferences are just that - personal. I'm not bagging on Jon at all. If it works for him, great. I've checked out most of the top 3 gunners' rifles and no 2 are the same. What works for me may not work for you. The reason I don't like the Aimpoint/iron sight setup is that it confuses my eyes. Dots and irons work almost opposite. With irons, you should focus on the tip of the front sight while maintaining sight alignment. With a dot, your focus should be on the target and let the dot impose itself over the target and there is no sight alignment. With both, I tend to spend time trying to align the dot with the front post. Or I try just to use the dot and hate all the visual blockage caused by the front sight assembly. (Edited by kellyn at 9:17 pm on Oct. 22, 2001)

Phil, Hunting with an AYA, you show yourself to be a man of taste and distinction! I'll bet it's singlemalts and Cuban cigars at your place. Glocklady makes a good point about the Browning semi. Bennie Cooley shoots one so they can't be that bad! Shootergrrl, steer clear of pumps and Benellis as they kick more. I was going to get my wife a 20 gauge 1100 for IPSC but then she just shot the AZ Police-Fire Games 3 gun match w/ my 12 gauge 1187. She had no problems with recoil and was high woman (12th overall). In fact, her favorite part of the match was shooting the shotgun. God, I love her!

Savages have a reputation for having good barrels and bad triggers. My dad's savage .308 hunting rifle was that way - Accurate but hard to shoot. I believe Shilen or Jewell came up with an aftermarket trigger but I've never tried one.

I know I am repeating myself ad naseum but I would first look to getting a low-powered variable scope - as fast as a dot up close and more precision at longer ranges. The Leupold 1.5-5X is ideal but a 2-7X or 1-4X would suffice. Burris makes a good one. Bushnell makes a good one as well and it is cheap. If you are set on a dot, make sure that it is not to big. 1-5 MOA not 8 or 10 MOA. C-Mores are ok but their lack of click adjustments is a disadvantage. Hard to zero and harder to make quick corrections. Aimpoints are good. Easy to zero and adjust plus they are very durable. I would get one w/ a 3 or 5 MOA dot. Holosights are good also. If it were me, I would go with the Holosight or Aimpoint.

Brian and Erik, Please don't take my Open Rifle National Championship away from me! Voight gave me a trophy. He gave Erik and Robbie one too. Give Rob his limited shotgun championship and me my lowly rifle trophy! Erik, shut up and be the 3 gun limited pistol national champion guy or whatever they call it:-) IT'S ALL I HAVE!!!!!!!! (Edited by kellyn at 7:37 am on Oct. 20, 2001)

Even, I don't really pay any attention to the numbering on the sight. What I want is enough elevation adjustment clicks so that I can have zeroes from 100 to 600 yards. When I zero, I bring the rear sight up 3-5 clicks from the bottom and shoot at 200 yards/meters. I adjust the front sight until the rifle is zeroed at that distance. I then go from there, zeroing 300 and now 400 and 500. I then check my 200 yard zero on close range targets (5-100 yards) and note where the bullet impact is. National Match posts are .050 and .054. I think a national match rear sight commonly has a .040 aperature. That may be a little small for 3 gunning. I'll measure mine and get back to you.