Shoot Houses

[Ben Stoeger]

Like them or not, I expect to be running into blind stages when I start hitting IDPA matches. It seems especially common to have a shoot house type of thing. You run into a house and have to shoot all the targets without having any idea of the layout.

The Question:

How do I prepare to tackle these stages?

What are the quickest ways to finish these stages, but not get any PE's?

Any sorts of practice drills I should be doing?

[revchuck]

Ben - In my experience, they're relatively rare. The only ones I've shot at a major match were at the '99 Nationals. As the match director for a local club, I can verify that they're a lot of work to put up and tear down. Unless your local clubs like using them, I wouldn't worry about them.

[Ben Stoeger]

The nearest club ran a shoot house last year at the state shoot. Also, Half of another stage was blind. I need to worry. I am worried.

[Scooter]

They are getting rare because it's not defensive when you have to do a house clearing.

You don't ever want to shoot first if there is a blind stage. You want to listen to the cadence of a couple shooters. Then you can figure out what the stage will be like.

[XRe]

I need to worry. I am worried.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No worries Practice it at home first - find a buddy, and pick out some number of targets. Face uprange, and have your buddy rearrange them randomly. Start facing uprange and turn and draw, etc. The idea being to practice target recognition, etc. Make it harder, if you want, and identify targets to shoot by some method (maybe put an orange target dot somewhere on them, or something). Be creative

If you have to shoot one, and have to go first, trust your target recognition, and just *do it*

[Gun Geek]

Ours weren't usually a shoot house, but since we were indoors, it was easy to create a stage where you didn't see target and no-shoot placement until you walked into the bay. Even then we set them up so you didn't see anything until you walked through a "door" on a stage. The stop-and-rob scenario was a popular theme. The critical issue was making sure the set-up was safe. We did this by keeping the number of targets and round count low.

The theory was in true defensive situations, you often didn't know the layout of an area, and didn't know how many BGs there were. The times we went to the trouble of setting up a shoot house (and the several I've shot at sanctioned matches), the theme was usually rescue of your family. This is about the only time a civy clearing a house is "defensive"

I used to try to have a blind stage every other match. We did a couple of these low light, and it really started people thinking. Some people got real bent out of shape, others thought it was ALL stages should be run. What I found is that the defense guys loved them, the gamers hated them. You were forced to slowdown and identify your target. I went to the a couple of polite society matches and all the stages were blind.

XRe has a good plan for practice. You can take some cardboard cut in the shape of a gun and paint it black. Open hands (we painted them white) used for no-shoots. You cna clip them to the target with a binder clip. Have your buddy re-arrange the guns and no-shoots. You'll see this in matches as well.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Main thing you need to practice is target identification and how to use a light. (How to keep the "Oh shit" comments in a low voice helps too)

Regards,

[tightloop]

as stated b4, getting rarer, hard to erect on a temporary basis and it is not defensive...

[cking]

I think it is a very good idea, but hard to implement because everybody talks and changing it for every shooter usually ends up with some harder than others.

We have a small Hogan alley. few doors and windows, and we don't let you enter the room have to shoot through the doors and windows. What I do is use the white side of targets and I put paint spots on them red green and blue. So have only one spot some have all three spots, some two. Then when you all loaded and ready you reach in a bag and grab a little wooden block painted with your color. Then we give the standby command and your off and running. It causes you to slow down and examine each target. What interesting is that i found people shot the color dot. Not the target center. So if dots were in D zone oh well.

Works very similiar to the photo's you put up that have changable objects, a toy, a gun, a badge.

A fun one we did once is hung a beautiful large breasted pinup girl in a bikini. nobody noticed the 38 in her hand by her thigh.

I find it good practice, although IPSC sport types [gamers] don't like it. Each his own.

[Ben Stoeger]

My only goal is to be able to make it through a blind stage in a reasonable time without any PE's. Good tips on how to practice from you guys. Thank you.

[tightloop]

Why Practice??????

You could do like Ken Hackathorn did in the 80's ...got ready to go thru the fun house and he yells at the front door...Police, everybody on the floor...then runs thru the house and shoots everything standing....was that gaming...

[Ted Murphy]

I think the exclusion of par time in the new rulebook will make shoot houses less appealing for a lot of clubs.

They are rather offensive than defensive. Most guys I know (like me) that do them, make some kind of crazy scenario up so it is somewhat plausable that someone would have to do it IRL.

I do them as a seperate match. If you include them in a club or even a major match, that stage usually "makes or breaks " the match for most the competitors. Add into the mix the fact that they can be cheated out relatively easily, it too often makes for an unfair match.

Doing them as a seperate event makes it more fun, and people can roll with it better.

To your original question, the best way to prepare for them is to listen to the shot cadence, and try to get an understanding of where the targets are, how many are together, etc. After that is listening to the ramblings of people who already shot it. Not very sporting, but that's how people tackle them.

Don't know what kind of practice you can do to prepare, beyond shooting a lot of those kind of stages at a local club.

I love to shoot those stages, but as part of a shooting match, they suck. Both to administer and to compete in.

Ted

[NEPAKevin]

You could do like Ken Hackathorn did in the 80's ...got ready to go thru the fun house and he yells at the front door...Police, everybody on the floor...then runs thru the house and shoots everything standing....was that gaming...

It's been a few years, but IIRC, when the described "tactic" was discussed on the yahoo list, it was attributed to Ray Chapman and the warning involved Nuns.

Kevin

[itento]

I was in a discussion today about starting our Phase II range construction and found out that one of the planned pistol bays was going to be a "shoot house" (bermed on all four sides with an entrance that has a bermed side wall blocking view into the "house). Having never experienced one before, I'm having a hard time visualizing placement of props/walls. Is the advantage just the ability/requirement to shoot in 360 degrees? How does the SO keep out of the way? If you can't shoot the 360, how is it different from a three sided bermed bay?

[Northern Xtreme]

They had a shoot house scenario at the NH state championship last year.

To me these are more realistic than most stages because you are actually being careful as you go through as you would be if there was really an armed threat out there.

[Gun Geek]

I was in a discussion today about starting our Phase II range construction and found out that one of the planned pistol bays was going to be a "shoot house" (bermed on all four sides with an entrance that has a bermed side wall blocking view into the "house).  Having never experienced one before, I'm having a hard time visualizing placement of props/walls.  Is the advantage just the ability/requirement to shoot in 360 degrees?  How does the SO keep out of the way?  If you can't shoot the 360, how is it different from a three sided bermed bay?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The interior of the house is a maze - hallways can double back. You place props so that the shooter is going forward and turning, but not swinging around. Clear a threat and move on. The shooter doesn't experience a true "360" i.e. a bunch of thugs standing in a circle around him, but you can get pretty close. The SO stays behind the shooter as they work through the house.

[DrKyle1]

At the Fiesta Regional last weekend there was a "BLIND" stage in sort of a shoot house. As far as preparing it is more of a mental thing and being aware of your abilities. In a match you should be running at about 90-95% of your top speed. I didn't know there was going to be a blind stage and I have only done maybe 2 or 3 shoot house styled bays before and I took 4th or 5th out of 137 shooters on that stage. Just remember tactical order, cover and be very aware of your muzzel!!!! They DQ'd 2 SO's due to breaking the 180 on that stage! One last thing... if you don't see hands on the target... give'm 2 to the body right away and move on!

[faustulus]

I don't really mind blind stages, I think they have their place in any competition, if for nothing else than to mix it up.

My problem with listening to the cadance, is that I am never sure what order they are engaging the targets and if they may have missed one, etc. I tend to rely on my target recognition, maybe it is slower, but it gets me fewer procedurals. -- and I get enough already.

[Tree Rat]

We got a real mind scrambler for the Maryland State Match this weekend.........

Nice work in getting it set-up. Local and Regional agencies already asking about training availability.

You can peak on course walk through but shoot/no shoots change for each shooter with shirt color shifts.

Don't think or plan too much

Don't rely on cadence

Don't shoot it first

An Oh yeah.....it's REAL DARK so you better practice your light techniques.

TR

[Ted Murphy]

You can peak on course walk through but shoot/no shoots change for each shooter with shirt color shifts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please Elaborate. Is the shirt color denoting the non threat target?

Ted

"The Bridge Will Be There!"

[Tree Rat]

You can peak on course walk through but shoot/no shoots change for each shooter with shirt color shifts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please Elaborate. Is the shirt color denoting the non threat target?

Ted

"The Bridge Will Be There!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes sir......maybe even using flip cards to determine what that color is......

Shooter Ready?.....Beep......Flip card....see RED.....GO....DON'T shoot RED.

or maybe they'll go light and just designate color before you load and make ready.

TR

[Crusher]

but shoot/no shoots change for each shooter with shirt color shifts.

Unless you are VERY carefull in your stage design you could inadvertantly give an advantage to some shooters by changing no-shoot arays. Personally I dislike stages where the aray is changed in any way from the first to last shooter.

[Tree Rat]

but shoot/no shoots change for each shooter with shirt color shifts.

Unless you are VERY carefull in your stage design you could inadvertantly give an advantage to some shooters by changing no-shoot arays. Personally I dislike stages where the aray is changed in any way from the first to last shooter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How Sooo?

TR

[Ted Murphy]

Yes sir......maybe even using flip cards to determine what that color is......

Shooter Ready?.....Beep......Flip card....see RED.....GO....DON'T shoot RED.

or maybe they'll go light and just designate color before you load and make ready.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Using colors to designate non threats is against the rules. For a sanctioned match that is not a very good thing to do.

Invariably you will encounter someone with a touch of color blindness who will want to find a butt to kick after the stage is over and will most certainly raise a stink with HQ about the club not following the rules.

I would suggest instead you take a coat hanger and bend it to a "U" shape. Attach a cardboard cutout of a hand to each end of the wire. Then the So's can just move them around by hanging them over the neck of the target after the shooters tape the targets.

Ted

E. Threat / Non-Threat Designation.

Threat targets may be designated by the painting of a gun or clipping the cutout of a gun on the target. This target designation is not mandatory, but is highly recommended. In no case should a gun and an open hand be positioned on the same target. Targets should be clearly designated as threat or non-threat.

Non-threat targets MUST be designated by the painting of an open hand or hands on the target or, in the case of a target with a shirt on it, clipping a cutout of an open hand or hands.

On a shoot through of a non-threat target that also strikes a threat target, the contestant will get the penalty for the non-threat target hit AND will get credit for the scored hit on the threat target. The reverse also applies when a round on a threat target penetrates a non-threat behind it. Hence the rule of thumb: all shoot throughs count (except on hard cover).

[Ted Murphy]

but shoot/no shoots change for each shooter with shirt color shifts.

Unless you are VERY carefull in your stage design you could inadvertantly give an advantage to some shooters by changing no-shoot arays. Personally I dislike stages where the aray is changed in any way from the first to last shooter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What he is referring to is that if you look at the targets you are going to change the array, some of the permutations will be easier to shoot than the others. Theoretically, some people will be able to make up time simply because they lucked out in the array set up.

This is probably more academic than practical, but it does happen.

Ted