Group Size FACTS: Shooting for Accuracy

[Bongo Boy]

I must have read a bajillion times folks saying "2 inch groups at 25 yards". It seems to almost be a standard expectation or comment. What I'd like is some basic expectation that includes 'bench rested' or 'freestyle' info so that the data has any comparative value.

It's true, 2" groups at EIGHT yards is doable for me. But, my sights are quite a bit bigger than the target at 25 yards...front sight width is about what, 5" or so? Hard to imagine putting shots into a group that's half the width of my front sight...

So...if we have folks who have REAL DATA where they've actually marked their targets BEFORE shooting them as far as distance, etc., I'd like to know what other folks can really do at 25 yards, and using what kind of sights and whether we're rested or freestyle.

Here are the basic guidelines for apples-to-apples:

Five-shot or ten-shot groups, just specify.

25 yards.

Freestyle or benchrest, just specify.

Any weapon, but let us know what it is.

Group size is actually measured to the nearest 1/4 inch, fliers included. Duh.

I'd like to know what folks can do, but this isn't a challenge or a testosterone test...it's an attempt to get some reality on what real folks can really do.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Bongo Boy

[carlosa]

I'll look for some of my targets and post the when I get a chance.

I been able to get 5 rounds touching at 25 yards with my trp operator

While sighting it in.

I think the trick is not to aim for the bulls eye. But to aim at the Center of the target (not sure if that makes sence).

If your shooting from the bench (I use my shooting bag as support ) then all you have to do to shoot well is get a good trigger pull with your sights on target.

It's much esier than you would think

I'll look for those pics and post them for you.

[carlosa]

Here's one 25 yards 6 inch shoot'n c sticker.

Shot out of my (out of the box) Springfield armory trp operator

45acp 230gr Blasser ammunition. Bench rest 5 shot group

One more..

Last one I promise!

5 shots 7 yards free style

[G-ManBart]

M41 with a Bully Barrel and C-More (8moa dot at the time), 25yds, 5-shots of CCI-SV, off the bench:

Smith M&P at 25yds, iron sights, 5-shots with Atlanta Arms Team Glock load, off the bench:

I don't have a picture, but with my Open gun I can shoot 1 to 1.5" ten shot groups off the bench at 25yds...pretty much at will. I've shot plenty of groups with my Limited and SS guns that were in the same ballpark.

[38supPat]

25m groups on IPSC target with open gun benchrested

I'll fix it when I get home but it's a 1 1/4" group

[GForceLizard]

1.6" 10 shot group with no flyers at 20 yards sandbag rested. Glock 22, Storm Lake Barrel, Precision 155gr, WST, Dawson .100 FO front sight.

[XRe]

35m, Brazos Pro Sx, .38 Super Comp - called flyer high right. 5 shots. This was after a long day on the range, and I wasn't quite patient with the one shot. BTW - 6 MOA dot, so the dot was covering far more than the group size at this distance. You can shoot tight groups with a wide front sight. The key is not the size of your sights (which we want to equate with "precision"), but the consistency of your sight picture and hold on the target.

[AzShooter]

Shot from 25 yards off a rest with My 627 and 180 grain bullets.

25 yards off rest with 160 grain Billy Bullets, same gun.

[AlamoShooter]

I do not spend time shooting a group at 25 yards unless I have a problem -with the gun- the amoe or the sights.

From the years of shooting STC I do most of my handgun grouping to check equipment and loads at 35 yards. This puts me very close if I decide to take a longer shots

I will normally rest my wrist firmly on the sandbags and let the gun recoil in my hands the same as if I were standing

[want2race]

This was 5 shots, 20 yards, rested. Indoor range with digital distance display, hanging target. I usually like to use outdoor ranges with target stands that are braced if I'm looking to eek out every ounce of accuracy. I used 20yards instead of 25 because the lighting was better.

The trick I found for good group shooting at 20,25 and 50 is to find the right target. With this square, I can line up the front sight consistantly to the same point of aim (bottom right corner of the square).

Edited July 22, 2010 by want2race

[benos]

I had a 40 caliber SVI that would shoot 5 shot groups under two inches at 50 yards, off sandbags, all day long.

Long ago I had a 38 special revolver that would do that, only the groups were never larger that 1.5".

And I still have a .22 S&W M 41, with a sleeved barrel (Anshutz rilfe barrel) that will steadily group around 1" at 50. It is the tack driving'est pistol i've ever owned.

be

[rvb]

Hard to imagine putting shots into a group that's half the width of my front sight...

Put the SPOT you are aiming at in the center of the front sight blade, and be as consistent as possible. That is true if your FS is 0.090 or 0.200 wide.

-rvb

[MTrout40]

Hard to imagine putting shots into a group that's half the width of my front sight...

Put the SPOT you are aiming at in the center of the front sight blade, and be as consistent as possible. That is true if your FS is 0.090 or 0.200 wide.

-rvb

The most accurate I've been when shooting at 25 yds + is to use a 6 'o clock hold on the bullseye so the entire circle is sitting on the front sight. I use a .090 and .100 dawson.

I don't remember the last time I actually measured a group at that distance, but I can keep them all in the upper A/B at 25-35 yds freestyle, so less than 4".

[Ron Ankeny]

Long ago I had a 38 special revolver that would do that, only the groups were never larger that 1.5".

Back in the 1970's a buddy of mine used to be kind of sort of a "distributor" for Ron Power PPC revolvers. We once took 5 model 10 Smiths that Ron built up into his top flight wheel guns to test in a Ransom rest with the intent of cherry picking a couple for ourselves. All of them shot 1.5 inches or better at 50 yards with Remington 148 WC loads.

I shot my M2i open blaster off of bags at 25 yards a week or so ago to test some different bullets. I got right around 1 3/4 inches. Even though folks have been known to raise the BS flag, I pretty much expect 3 inch groups freestyle at 25 yards with any decent gun I pick up (dot or irons)...day in and day out, cold and on demand.

[P.E. Kelley]

How about some groups shot on "Race Day"

Not the best the guns can do but the best I did at the match.

Of course these were shot at one hand bullseye matches.

F. Bob Chow built Colt 38super converted to 38 special wadcutter only.

I found it a tough gun to shoot well but well it could shoot!

Put a bunch of Hammerli,Pardini,Hi Standard and S&W41's pistol in 2nd place with this little old Ruger.

First 45 I ever built. Took me to master and shot a 2617/2700 with it and the Ruger earning a spot in the NRA's 2600 Club.

Thank for letting me share.

Patrick

[mudman]

Here's my best group at 25 meters - 5 shots freestyle using a Sig 226 with iron sights. The black dot is a 3/4 inch paster, so the total group size must be a little over 1.5 inches. That flyer has been laughing at me ever since...

At 25m the front sight is much wider than the paster, so I use the middle of the front sight as my aiming point. Trying to break the shot when the sight picture is "just right" tends not to work too well for me. At that distance, my groups are much better if I get my sight picture, then shift my attention to keeping my hands still and watching the sight alignment while gradually increasing pressure on the trigger. My groups seem to tighten up when I don't think about aiming - I get my best results when I trust my hold and just focus on the relationship between my sight alignment and my trigger.

[Bongo Boy]

Thank you all very much for taking the time to post up your targets/results. I look forward to taking some of the tips to the range and experimenting again. Some of the comments above help me explain why I did better with black iron sights (MP45c) vs the fiber optic front sight (MP40p), and also possibly why I did better freestyle and rapid vs bench rest and slow. I'll have to pay attention to what I'm paying attention to.

[MrBorland]

BB -

I know you said 25 yards, but I only have targets for 15 yards. Still, you're interested in data, so maybe you'll find it helpful. 5-shot groups below are in the neighborhood of 3/4" - 1". Don't know if it's legit to extrapolate to 25 yards, but I suspect I'd be able to pull off 2" @25.

All were shot standing, unsupported 2-hands, and with one exception, double action. The 617 .22 and K-38 are stock (except for the grips) with standard Patridge sights. The 686 is my IDPA/ICORE gun, and worked on by Mike Carmoney. Mike didn't do any accurizing per se, but the super light hammer seemed to help accuracy by reducing lock time and the jarring of the sight picture when the hammer strikes the round. I included a link to a video demonstrating the light hammer strike.

Some good thoughts on this thread, namely focus on sight alignment and trigger control, rather than the target, and use an appropriate target. Other "group" killers include peeking at the target between shots and adjusting grip and/or stance between shots.

IMHO, a 3" 25 yard group, shot unsupported with a service size gun is certainly do-able with practice.

4" S&W 617 .22LR revolver, shot DA. 5 rounds @ 0.71"

6" S&W K-38 .38 revolver, shot SA. 5 rounds @ 0.75"

6" S&W K-38 .38 revolver, shot DA. 5 rounds @ 0.75".

4" S&W "Carmonized" DAO 686. 5 rounds @ 0.9 - 1". Shanked the last shot

Demo of light hammer strike:

.

[benos]

GrandBoule,

Good shooting. I did a lot of freestyle group shooting at 15 yards. A good shot with an accurate handgun can just "keep 'em all touching" at 15 yards.

be

[Bongo Boy]

I can relate to target selection being important, at least I think it is for me. As a 'beginner' with too many things going on in the head, I've found things to happen that the more experienced would likely find unimaginable--such as 'forgetting' by the 3rd round exactly where I was putting the sights for the first two. I've even done things that are unimaginable even for myself...such as giving in to the temptation of shooting at the first hole in the target (yep, I'm man enough to admit it) instead of a single point of aim--leading inevitably to the 'random walk', if you will.

What puts this all into perspective is that I frequently get comments from other shooters* at the range; "That's some good shooting!" or "Wow, you're really shooting some tight groups." Which of course is a curse on any hope of good shooting for the next few rounds (ego puffery is such a dark master). But, when I look at what you guys are doing, my 8 and 12 yard groups are comparable to your 15 and 25s. I don't like to compare, but, uh, well yes I do. Honestly it's not because I'm thinking "I want to be that good", it's because, like so many marginal performers, I know I impose false limits on myself. Seeing what is really possible, not what folks claim they do, tells me attention to detail pays off.

I'll just make 'attention to detail quickly' a practice exercise separate from this one, for now. My new prescription shooting glasses promise to make a difference--as far as gear goes, these will likely be a huge exception to the it's the indian not the arrow rule. I believe the indian has to be able to see (something) in order to allow the arrow to find its way to the target.

*Not in any way to denigrate the skills of others, but simply to express a sadness that they don't get any reasonable guidance, I regularly see shooting at my club that is hard to imagine. Often, as in most times I'm there, I see folks shooting at 5 to 7 yards at 'tactical' targets where it truly appears they've fired a 12ga shotgun with 4" barrel loaded with #2 buck. I'm not exagerrating when I say, I've seen 18" 'groups', or larger, shot from 7 yards. And I'm not talking just the 'double tap' folks...I'm talking folks aiming at...something. Again, this isn't a "jeez how could anyone suck that much?" observation but just an observation that you should be able to see why people may not stick with the hobby. They don't know that shooting better is quite easy if given the slightest bit of coaching.

It's no different in my case, just a matter of degree. Two-inch groups offhand at 25 yards? I seriously questioned this was possible and believed there was an awful lot of BSing going on somewhere.

I liken this to billiards, where many of us believed for the longest time that good shots were either magic, or some god-given skill that could be found somewhere along the DNA chain.

What holds each of us back is a nasty evil thing. It sure would be nice that thing were external so we could blame it on someone else. Of course, that would simply make us nasty evil things in stasis.

Edited July 23, 2010 by Bongo Boy

[MrBorland]

Not in any way to denigrate the skills of others, but simply to express a sadness that they don't get any reasonable guidance, I regularly see shooting at my club that is hard to imagine.

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that guidance is there for all who look, so kudos to you.

these will likely be a huge exception to the it's the indian not the arrow rule. I believe the indian has to be able to see (something) in order to allow the arrow to find its way to the target.

Personally, I like a nice bow. A lesser-accurate gun is less able to place the shot where the sights tell me where it would've otherwise gone, despite applying the fundamentals well. How am I supposed to become a better shot with that gun?

Two-inch groups offhand at 25 yards? I seriously questioned this was possible and believed there was an awful lot of BSing going on somewhere.

No reason to define your potential by the "Joes" you see at the range, or those who shoot 2" 25-yard groups. Hell, you might have the ability to well-surpass the latter.

GrandBoule,

Good shooting. I did a lot of freestyle group shooting at 15 yards. A good shot with an accurate handgun can just "keep 'em all touching" at 15 yards.

be

Thanks, Brian. I loves me some fundamentals. I just keep working on applying them faster.

Tom

[mudman]

Bongo Boy,

I could really relate to your last post. When I first started out, I was happy if I could keep all 5 shots on a 6-inch bullseye at 10m. Then I saw somebody at my club shoot a 3-inch group at 25m and I thought, “Wow! I wonder if I can do that?” It took a while, but I finally did it. Then I thought, “I wonder if I can make them even smaller?” I’m still working on it, but I thought I’d share some tips that helped:

First off, you’re doing better than a lot of shooters if you can get nice, tight groups at 8-12 yards. Next time you’re at the range, try moving the target back 3-5 yards and shooting for the same group size. When you can do that consistently, move the target back another 3-5 yards and try it again – all the way out to 25 yards. You’ll learn a lot more about your shooting by increasing the distance gradually. Going straight to 25 is an exercise in frustration (trust me).

It seems strange, but you really don’t need to pay much attention to the target after you’ve initially aimed the gun. The target isn’t moving - so as long as you keep the gun perfectly still, it should still be pointing where you aimed it.

The next trick is to make the hammer drop without moving the gun. This is where the relationship between sight alignment and trigger pull comes into play. You need to watch the sights closely because they’re giving you constant feedback on the quality of your trigger pull. If you’re pulling the trigger straight back, the gun (and the sights) won’t move. If the sights move, it means you’re doing unnecessary things with the trigger.

Good luck and keep at it! Accuracy is addictive.

[Ron Ankeny]

This should bring a smile to the faces of the Glock shooters. I have a G17 that I use in GSSF that just doesn't seem to be up to snuff in the accuracy department. A couple of days ago, a buddy of mine told me he had an incredibly accurate stock G17 that he would bring to the USPSA match today that I could try. After the match, I shot the following 7 shot group at 25 yards, standing without support, with 115 aluminum case Blazer ammo. I called the shot to the left as wide at about 11 o'clock when the sight lifted. Of course, I only shot one group.

[G-ManBart]

The next trick is to make the hammer drop without moving the gun. This is where the relationship between sight alignment and trigger pull comes into play. You need to watch the sights closely because they’re giving you constant feedback on the quality of your trigger pull. If you’re pulling the trigger straight back, the gun (and the sights) won’t move. If the sights move, it means you’re doing unnecessary things with the trigger.

The gun and the sights are always moving. It's the timing and type of movement that shows whether you have a problem with your trigger press. R,

[benos]

Here's my best group at 25 meters - 5 shots freestyle using a Sig 226 with iron sights. The black dot is a 3/4 inch paster, so the total group size must be a little over 1.5 inches. That flyer has been laughing at me ever since...

At 25m the front sight is much wider than the paster, so I use the middle of the front sight as my aiming point. Trying to break the shot when the sight picture is "just right" tends not to work too well for me. At that distance, my groups are much better if I get my sight picture, then shift my attention to keeping my hands still and watching the sight alignment while gradually increasing pressure on the trigger. My groups seem to tighten up when I don't think about aiming - I get my best results when I trust my hold and just focus on the relationship between my sight alignment and my trigger.

Bongo Boy,

I could really relate to your last post. When I first started out, I was happy if I could keep all 5 shots on a 6-inch bullseye at 10m. Then I saw somebody at my club shoot a 3-inch group at 25m and I thought, “Wow! I wonder if I can do that?” It took a while, but I finally did it. Then I thought, “I wonder if I can make them even smaller?” I’m still working on it, but I thought I’d share some tips that helped:

First off, you’re doing better than a lot of shooters if you can get nice, tight groups at 8-12 yards. Next time you’re at the range, try moving the target back 3-5 yards and shooting for the same group size. When you can do that consistently, move the target back another 3-5 yards and try it again – all the way out to 25 yards. You’ll learn a lot more about your shooting by increasing the distance gradually. Going straight to 25 is an exercise in frustration (trust me).

It seems strange, but you really don’t need to pay much attention to the target after you’ve initially aimed the gun. The target isn’t moving - so as long as you keep the gun perfectly still, it should still be pointing where you aimed it.

The next trick is to make the hammer drop without moving the gun. This is where the relationship between sight alignment and trigger pull comes into play. You need to watch the sights closely because they’re giving you constant feedback on the quality of your trigger pull. If you’re pulling the trigger straight back, the gun (and the sights) won’t move. If the sights move, it means you’re doing unnecessary things with the trigger.

Good luck and keep at it! Accuracy is addictive.

Good stuff!

Yes, stop aiming and shoot your hold.

be