is this a legal uspsa shooting position

[Blueridge]

I don't see it as violating the rule mentioed above. I would have to see it in person to make a definite decision.

It looks to me that the support hand/arm is creating "sympathetic tension" which would help stable the primary hand/arm. Now before someone says that would be providing support, understand that creating tension with the support hand would do this no matter where is it. If you are holding/carrying something in your support hand and grip it hard, then your primary hand will "mirror" that about 30% to 40% (if I remember the percentages right from training). Anything your one hand does (gripping, grabbing, grasping,...) the other hand will naturally do to a certain level sympathetically.

Thus it would be possible with practice to do what he is showing in the photo when not required to hold something in his support hand while shooting, and hold something in his support hand when required and get the same benefit.

[mhs]

Would it be legal to cross your off arm in front of your body, and support your shooting arm with it? You could do this and have your off hand several inches away from your shooting arm.

The only thing I can see that might make it illegal is the implication in 10.2.8 that hand=arm in some situations.

[mhs]

Since you’re asking me, per 10.2.8.2, I would call it illegal. But you’re asking me as a physical therapist not as the guy who wrote the rules.

10.2.8.2 "Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots"

There are plenty of valid reasons to give proceedurals. Why are so many posters here looking for rationalizations to penalize actions that are safe, and are not clearly violations?

Why assume that posters here are looking for rationalizations to penalize actions? I'm pretty sure I'm not. I'm pretty sure (my last class was CRO, wrapped up in early '07) that I know what the Board intended/how NROI interprets that rule......

If I gave someone a proceedural for using the shooting position in the original post, and he asked me to show him the rule against having his off-hand on his shoulder, I don't think it would matter to him what the Board/NROI intended. It would matter that he followed a reasonable interpretation of the rules, using common definitions of "arm" and "shoulder", and got penalized.

If I give someone a penalty I want a rule or NROI interpretation to back it up.

[Flexmoney]

We need some clarity here.

If we hang on "support" and try to reason that with "stability"...then just about anything could be deemed to be against the rules. Heck, the feet support and stabilize everything. But, that is a poor example (since that is not the rule).

What about bringing the off-hand into this...?

I certainly get support if I take my off hand, place it in the small of my back, run it half way down between my back and my belt, and then make a fist. That tightens up my core and provides support and stability. (yeah...my lower back is hurting today ) But, that is not illegal (since that is not the rule).

Maybe it's just an issue of stability? If you tried the original position in question, now try this...

Square your shoulders up. Extend your weak (left) arm in a shooting grip, with your shoulders still squared up. Now, just tilt your head all the way over an lay your head on your left shoulder, with your right eye sighting down your arm. Now that your head and shoulder are in contact, apply some pressure and push the head and shoulder against each other. Stability achieved. But, that is not illegal either (since that is not the rule)

Everything is cloudy because we are all assuming the intent of the rule. Much of that boils down to some version of if you are doing something that provides stability, then it can't be legal. But, we know that is not the rule. As I have shown above, just about anything can provide stability. Where does it all stop?

We need some clarity here.

So then, where is the line in the sand?

Here it is:

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting arm while firing shots;

Our question boils down to using the other hand on the shooting arm. Is it touching the shooting arm or not?

I think that is the only question. Sure makes things more simple.

[Flexmoney]

So, that begs...

What is the "shooting arm"? It's not really defined.

Personally, I don't believe deltoids are the arm (at all). I do think they are the shoulder.

The pictured shooter is NOT touching the arm, as we know it. I imagine that he might be touching the shoulder. But, jeez...just barely?

But, to muddy the waters... we might have to include the shoulder as part of the arm if we go by:

10.2.8 ...other hand (i.e. the other arm from the shoulder to the hand)...

Now, my guess is that the "(i.e. ...)" example above was not meant to really define the shoulder. I would think it was added to keep somebody from using their off side forearm as a rest for the shooting arm (like a flash light technique might do). But...that is more of that "intent" stuff.

I hope that helps to boil it down to it's nitty-gritty parts.

If I am on the arb committee on this one, I'd want to see it demonstrated by the shooter in person. Then I would check to see if he was even touching his delts (shoulder). If not, then legal. If he was, then we'd have to hammer out if the shoulder is actually part of the arm. I see a position for that in 10.2.8, but I don't know that I am buying that as the definition.

[XRe]

In the end, it just doesn't matter. You can get pedantic about whether it's technically supporting the arm to some very small degree or not. The fact is, the position is slower for shooting (the body position will tend to pull you toward the off-hand side at the shoulders - that is, across the body) which further exacerbates the recoil profile of the gun (which will already tend to recoil in that direction anyway), and in order to gain any head support, you have to either shrug the on-hand shoulder up so high or tilt the head over to that shoulder so far (or combo of both - you can see both in the photo in your first post) that the net effect will also be detrimental to the shooting (for a number of reasons).

Why do you have a hard time shooting weak hand? Exactly what are the symptoms?

remember that the big words are usally the most truthful

My experience is that the "big words" are usually a sham Those who can don't need to make bold statements about it....

[bigbrowndog]

Man!!! am I glad I read Flex's response before I posted this because you guys are frickin' hilarious this topic needs to be moved to the HUMOR section.

Having had "some" training in the human body, the shoulder is not the ARM if it was then it would be called the upper arm and not the shoulder, the ARM bones end with the humerus. Flex's analogy about the feet lending support to our entire frame is the most astute observation mentioned in this topic, which should show how ridiculous some of the responses about lending support to the shooting arm really are.

The response about someone ROing and giving out procedural's and then all you have to do is pay 100.00 to find out if their opinion is wrong, is exactly the attitude that turns away shooters. Would you be so quick to make a judgment like that if you had to pay 100.00 if you were over ruled??????? Use a little common sense and remember it should still be about having fun.

trapr

Edited January 5, 2010 by bigbrowndog

[BSeevers]

Man!!! am I glad I read Flex's response before I posted this because you guys are frickin' hilarious this topic needs to be moved to the HUMOR section.

Having had "some" training in the human body, the shoulder is not the ARM if it was then it would be called the upper arm and not the shoulder, the ARM bones end with the humerus. Flex's analogy about the feet lending support to our entire frame is the most astute observation mentioned in this topic, which should show how ridiculous some of the responses about lending support to the shooting arm really are.

The response about someone ROing and giving out procedural's and then all you have to do is pay 100.00 to find out if their opinion is wrong, is exactly the attitude that turns away shooters. Would you be so quick to make a judgment like that if you had to pay 100.00 if you were over ruled??????? Use a little common sense and remember it should still be about having fun.

trapr

I have brought hundreds into the sport.

I don't pay a $100 to RO but I am big enough to accept the fact if I am wrong. I think I am right in this specific point and back to the point. I will call it procedural and we have rules to determine if it isn't a correct call. If I didn't feel that way in my opinion I am not fit to RO.

If you read my entire post you see that I recommend that its not a good idea to do that position from a compeditors viewpoint.

Pulling on the Skin, the Shoulder, the Scapula or whatever is connected to the shooting arm is support.

You can argue how many angels dancing on the head of the pin or describing foot placement or other non related items as another form of "support". I don't think that is the right approach.

I looked at the pic, mimiced it and determined it was "support" That's how I see it.

As a RO, I make a call and its your right, and mine, as a shooter to challenge via the arb process. Its not a negative thing (in the context that I stated it). What are we supposed to do?

[AlamoShooter]

Three pages in just two days

I think the next match I set-up will have all "unsuported" stages

[Steve J]

Three pages in just two days

I think the next match I set-up will have all "unsuported" stages

Instead of WHO or SHO, Jamie's stage description will read Engage with disembodied free-floating hand.

[mhs]

The response about someone ROing and giving out procedural's and then all you have to do is pay 100.00 to find out if their opinion is wrong, is exactly the attitude that turns away shooters. Would you be so quick to make a judgment like that if you had to pay 100.00 if you were over ruled??????? Use a little common sense and remember it should still be about having fun.

trapr

Excellent post.

Much of my motivation in participating in this forum is due to my experiences in IDPA. I shot in two matches, in each case scrupulously folowing the SO's instructions, and in each match got penalized for things that were not clearly defined (I think FTDR in each case, but I'm not sure). These experiences were enough to keep me from attending any more IDPA matches. One of my big concerns as an RO is to be able to clearly, with written documentation, explain any penalty I need to give.

Remember this?

"I will be firm and fair in all judgmental calls made during the course of a stage, and be prepared to state in a clear and concise manner my reasons for such calls to the particular competitor or any Range Official."

I will not give a penalty if I need to provide explanations such as "In USPSA arm includes the shoulder, even though it is not clearly defined", or "I know you didn't touch your arm, but you supported it indirectly, violating the spirit of the rule."

If I can't clearly support a penalty, using the rulebook, revisions, and published NROI rulings, I will give the shooter the benefit of the doubt.

Edited January 6, 2010 by mhs

[mactiger]

Look, the whole point of requiring strong- or weak-hand shooting is to simulate the loss of the other hand. That goes all the way to the practical roots of the sport. You got shot/stabbed/maimed in one hand and have to use the other one now. It's not there anymore--at least not for you to use it. You can't use it to hang onto a barricade, you can't use it to support your arm while you shoot. There are only three instances where you can use it--reload, clear a jam, and take the safety off--and those are "gimmes" to improve the safety of the sport.

You want to touch your chest with your off hand? Go ahead. Stick it in your pocket or in the small of your back. But, put it on top of your shoulder and then lock everything down with your head? I don't think so. We don't need anatomical definitions of where the humerus ends and the deltoids begin. As an RO, you will be called upon to make judgment calls--this may be one of those times. It's clear to me (as I stated earlier) that this position will lend support to the shooting arm, and is therefore illegal under the rules.

Troy

[twodownzero]

I would give procedurals. I believe its 10.2.8.2

Nothing supporting the shooting arm or hand. Not a procedural.

[Nik Habicht]

If I can't clearly support a penalty, using the rulebook, revisions, and published NROI rulings, I will give the shooter the benefit of the doubt.

O.K. --- so you're willing to instead penalize every other shooter in the match? Here's the thing: it doesn't have to be either/or. It can be: "Hmmm, I haven't seen that before; I'm not certain that's legal, I'm not certain it's a problem --- give me a moment to consult with the CRO or RM." Then do that --- and apply all the rules equitably to all competitors.....

In a lot of these rules discussions we're talking about hypotheticals --- and often some of us steer the conversation with a very rigid viewpoint from one side or the other of the issue. I often do this (play devil's advocate) when I'm not 100% certain because I figure there's a possibility that I could be convinced to make the call one way or the other.....

In a match situation, I owe it to every competitor there to make the right call every time. That will sometimes necessitate asking for help form a higher match authority. (And typically at matches, the issues/violations are a little cleaner....)

[BSeevers]

I would give procedurals. I believe its 10.2.8.2

Nothing supporting the shooting arm or hand. Not a procedural.

why not respond to my last post?

[Flexmoney]

Lets ease up a bit before this goes south.

I might have a differing opinion on this call than others, but they are looking at it and sharing how they see it as well.

** edit to add: Wow, you guys post quick. I got up for a few and about 4 posts got in ahead of me.

[mhs]

If I can't clearly support a penalty, using the rulebook, revisions, and published NROI rulings, I will give the shooter the benefit of the doubt.

O.K. --- so you're willing to instead penalize every other shooter in the match? Here's the thing: it doesn't have to be either/or. It can be: "Hmmm, I haven't seen that before; I'm not certain that's legal, I'm not certain it's a problem --- give me a moment to consult with the CRO or RM." Then do that --- and apply all the rules equitably to all competitors.....

I will try and do my job correctly, following the official rules. To be honest, at anything larger than a club match I've always gone to the RM if I have any doubt.

In a lot of these rules discussions we're talking about hypotheticals --- and often some of us steer the conversation with a very rigid viewpoint from one side or the other of the issue. I often do this (play devil's advocate) when I'm not 100% certain because I figure there's a possibility that I could be convinced to make the call one way or the other.....

Me too.

[twodownzero]

I would give procedurals. I believe its 10.2.8.2

Nothing supporting the shooting arm or hand. Not a procedural.

why not respond to my last post?

Hadn't read it yet. Read the whole thread now, and my opinion has not changed.

I polled the three in my household. Dad says it's a procedural. Sister agrees. I disagree. So if it was a democracy, I'd lose.

I'd like to see a poll on this issue...it seems about 50/50 in this thread.

For me, "shoulder" isn't "shooting arm" so it was clear. Others obviously disagree.

Edited January 6, 2010 by twodownzero

[juan]

thats what i think, but it seems that, some ROs like and some dont,its right about 50/50,i think it is legal

[racerba]

thats what i think, but it seems that, some ROs like and some dont,its right about 50/50,i think it is legal

Then continue to do it. You will get dinged 50% of the time. If you get dinged at a major match, it will cost you $100 to see if you are right at that match. Me? I would stop doing it and not get dinged 100% of the time.

[Steve J]

thats what i think, but it seems that, some ROs like and some dont,its right about 50/50,i think it is legal

Read Mactiger's posts here. That's as close to an official NROI response as you're going to get on this forum. Unlearn your bad habit. The probability is far greater than 50/50 that it won't be legal in the final wash.

[twodownzero]

I would say lose the habit because it's not going to help your shooting. Put your non shooting hand in the middle of your chest, lean forward, cant the gun, and blast away.

[badchad]

So, that begs...

What is the "shooting arm"? It's not really defined.

Personally, I don't believe deltoids are the arm (at all). I do think they are the shoulder.

The pictured shooter is NOT touching the arm, as we know it. I imagine that he might be touching the shoulder. But, jeez...just barely?

I don’t think it’s barely at all. I’m going to try and illustrate this in layman’s terms and show that the arm “by any definition” is being supported.

How far can most people move their “arms” overhead? Most will say all the way up, or 180 degrees. However the glenohumeral joint (humerus on scapula) only makes up about 120 degrees of that 180 going overhead. Your scapula and clavicle (shoulder blade and collar bone) moving about your thorax make up the other 60 or so degrees of what just about everyone refers to when they are talking about shoulder or arm motion.

Now try pressing your fist on top of your shoulder just like in the pic, and better yet, pin it their even harder with your chin. From this same position, now lift your gun arm overhead and see how far it goes. I’m guessing you will lose about 60 degrees of motion.

So to me is seems very clear that he is directly limiting the range, and thereby supporting the strong arm (from the shoulder to the hand) with his weak hand.

[Dan Hefta]

This is one of the huge issues I have with our sport, there are way too many grey areas, you talk to on RO and he says it's ok, then the next says it's not. Even on this topic a highly respected member of the NROI says it's illegal and you still have people saying it's legal.

Edited January 6, 2010 by danscrapbags

[Zerwas]

This is one of the huge issues I have with our sport, there are way too many grey areas, you talk to on RO and he says it's ok, then the next says it's not. Even on this topic a highly respected member of the NROI says it's illegal and you still have people saying it's legal.

Agreed. My vote would be with what Troy says. He seems to have a good head on his shoulders, even if he is from Louzie-anna.