jjustice Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Fellow Wheel Gunners, Today John Amidon asked if I would be interested in helping to draft the rules for revolvers in Production Division. I gladly accepted (thats sometimes something that you get for complaining), and I would appreciate your inputs. After all, you are the ones who will be competing in this division. I have reviewed the Production Rules for USPSA and IPSC, and although I don't have a clear understanding of the IPSC permitted handguns, I will contact them for clarification. Please e-mail me with your recommendations. jjustice@capefear.cc.nc.us or justicegang@2khiway.net Hot damn, another chance to wipe the eyes of those auto shooooooters. Joe Justice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 I'd say R-P rules would be simple: any factory barrel length or profile, .38 Special or larger, scored Minor, and any factory capacity. Unfortunately there is no factory Minor .32 Magnum ammo (nor any published data for same) so a 9-shot .32 won't fly. The moment there is published load data for .32 Magnum that makes Minor, I'd say let it in. No comps, iron sights only, any grip/finish mods you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Doesn't regular Revolver says "no externals Modifications"? Of course, Production already says this, but it might be important to take a look and make sure there aren't any misunderstandings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Yeah, what Pat said. Personally, I don't have any idea why a person would want to bail out of revolver division and shoot a wheelgun in Production. Maybe we could just add revolvers to Production, Limited, etc. then eliminate revolver division altogether? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikey357 Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 ...I think it would be WONDERFUL if SOMEHOW USPSA would make it legal for me to utilize the FULL CAPACITY of my 686 Pluses (7-shot) and my 627 PC (8-shot) WITHOUT having to shoot in "Open" class or "L-10"....just my $.02 worth....mikey357 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Yeah...those 8 round Supers would have a better place to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Well color me stupid. I never even thought about the 7 and 8 round wheelguns. I am all for it, let the guys shoot production. Sometimes I am a little slow on the draw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Joe: Production division gives me an opportunity to use my 8 shot 627 to its full capability. Here is what I'd suggest. 1. 38 Caliber or larger 2. Barrel length 6.5 inches max. 3. Use IPSC Revolver division rules for external/internal modifications. 4. Holster location- mirror IPSC rules (allows a speedloader/moonclip pouch slightly in front of the holster). 5. Holsters- no "race type" holsters...use existing USPSA Production Division rules regarding holster design. I can't begin to tell you how excited I am to be FINALLY able to use my 627 w/o dropping loaded ammo on the ground. Allowing 8 shot revolvers in USPSA Production division is a great idea...even if only a few (like me) take up the challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 I don't know why anyone would want to further restrict a new product that hasn't even actually breathed the life of day yet. We already have adopted the IPSC equipment and holster position rule as the forward point of the hip bone, we still have the "no race holster rule". We adopted a maximum barrel length of 8.5 inches to include almost every revolver that would possibly be used. If a person wants to drag their 8 3/8 inch blaster out of their hip holster, go for it. Have fun!! We didn't want to exclude any revolver shooters from this new venture. There already is a minimum caliber of 9x19 established for all the divisions including Production. Since these have to be factory built guns and production numbers have to be met, if a company wants to make a new master blaster in 9x19 for us to play with, I don't see why we should eliminate this. I have pushed to ease the restrictions on revolvers and give the folks to want to shoot them a place to play. I want more guns on the range, not fewer, or with more restrictions. Let the games begin!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Gary, why if you've already done all these things is John Amidon asking for input? Besides, the gentleman asked for input...so I gave him mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Chuck if you have read the minutes, and the current rule book, you will notice all of the things I have listed. As to John's request, I suppose you would need to ask him. The forward holster and allied equipment position is a done deal. The minimum caliber 9x19 is a done deal as it is already the standard for the division. The maximum barrel length is a done deal. And unless there is going to be special exceptions for revolvers from the external modification and grip rules, that part is a done deal. If there is going to be exemptions for revolvers for those two areas, I would think that the BOD would have to make those exemptions. I wanted a place for the 7-8 shot revolver shooters to play. It was fairly obvious that the Revolver Standard division was not a place I could get movement, but Production was. I made the motion to remove the minimum caliber requirement of 357 magnum to make major PF, from the Revolver Division to allow the 38 super wheel guns to play in that division. The BOD responded to those ideas and we now have a new place to play and one less restriction on the regular revolver division. Again, let the games begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Gary, I read the minutes and the rule book. What I haven't read yet is why John Amidon is looking for input on the rules you so deftly explained to me ( in such a "personal" fashion that makes me feel so very "special" I might add) as If I am the enemy here. I assure you I am not and we're in "lock step" agreement as to what you and the remaining BOD's have done in as far as producing adequate rules for Revolvers in Production Division. Am I to believe that the BOD's and the USPSA Vice President don't speak to each other in regards to such issues? Obviously SOMETHING is in question here. Once again, opinions were asked for and I offered one. I'm not looking for a fight and I didn't want to spoil the discussion. Thanks Joe for seeking out other's opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Nothing personal Chuck. In our past conversations I have always got the impression you delt in facts, black and white facts. E-mail is not always the best forum for normal conversation. I am just trying to be a complete, and factual as possible. Yes, the BOD and the VP have normal conversations, and I would assume that John has his reasons that are well founded. However the rules that were being discussed were already in place and I just wanted to point that out. As you said the gentleman asked for opinions and you gave yours and others gave theirs. Merry Christmas and a happy revolver new year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 I must be missing something here. Am I right in assuming that if I shoot my 625 in production, I would be competing against folks shooting Glocks with 10 round mags? Please tell me this is not what USPSA is considering? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 I would: 1) Allow speedloaders to be carried in front of the hipbone. 2) Allow every grip (factories offer a gazillion different ones, so one could never check) 3) Allow every barrel lenght of up to 8 3/8" This is what IPSC production revolver rules should be like too, IMHO. It will draw more people toward PD. Don't limit revolvers any more than they already are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 By removing the box from Production, it opened the door for revolvers to compete in that division. There was not a new Revolver Production Division created, only the allowance of guns that were previously prohibited by the box. The decisions made by the competitor as to what gun to use in a particular division is totally up to the competitor. The assumption is correct that if "you" choose to shoot "your" Mdl. 625 in Production, then you will be in competition with others who have 10 rounds. However if you choose to shoot an 8 shot revolver in Production, your deficit in rounds is reduced. You can still choose to shoot the Mdl. 625 in Revolver Standard Division at no capacity deficit. The choice always remains with the competitor. While rainbows are not present in the sky over everyone's heads, revolvers have more access and less restrictions than they had prior to this change. A small step forward is better than no step at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phara Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 Gary, Thanks for thinking of us revo shooters. I appreciate your hard work in getting the production rules changed. I think giving people with 7 and 8 shot revos a more competitive place to play is great. Keep up the good work. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 You are welcome. However I would like to accomplish a little more in this area before we call it a day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Hello, I have never done IPSC, but have shot IDPA. If I were shooting a 4" 686, using speedloaders, what kind of a class would I shoot in, and what other types of revolvers would shoot in it? Thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Wayne, If that is a six shot, you will likely want to shoot it in Revolver Division. Revolver Division says that all the wheel gunners HAVE to reload after every six shots (even if they have a 8-shot gun). And, in Revolver Division, you have the option to load up to Major Power Factor...or down to Minor. I think you are also free to use any holsters and mag pouches that you like for Revolver Division. Now (well, next year, when the rules go into effect) that the Production Division has lost "the box" that wheel guns wouldn't fit into...that means the wheel guns can be used in Production Division. There is no six shot rule in Production, if your gun holds 7, 8, or 9, shoot them all if you like. Everybody in Production shoots Minor (no matter how hot their load). The holsters are restricted to "non-race" type holsters. And, the holsters and pouches can only be placed so far forward. So, six gunners would likely shoot in Revolver. And, the 6+ wheel gunners would likely shoot in Production (just my guess). Oh...in either Division...the guns must be pretty much "factory produced". Production Division stipulates 2000 made (I don't think Revolver Division has a "minimum guns made" limit.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slughammer Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 I've been following this idea in several areas and I have mixed feelings to go along with my confusion. The mixed feelings are based on breaking up competition in what is currently the division with the smallest number of classified shooters. On many levels (local, sectional, area) it is not always a given that there will be (3) shooters in Revolver division at any given match. To allow revolvers in Production division could actually draw away shooters from Revolver division. On the same note of Production division is L10. The confusion is based on the current rule book, is there an addendum I'm missing? L10 requires a minimum of 40 cal for major. Does this mean that an 8 shot revolver loaded with 357 and shot in L10 can only be scored minor? signed - discombobulated in PA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 L10 requires a minimum of 40 cal for major. Does this mean that an 8 shot revolver loaded with 357 and shot in L10 can only be scored minor? That is the way I read it. Gotta have 40 caliber or larger to make Major in Limited or Limited 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 When do we find out what the final USPSA rules on 8 shot revolver in Production are. For that matter, when do we find out about the Springfield XD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Nothing changes until you see it in Front Sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 The current issue, which I received yesterday, has the approved gun list for Production Division. Check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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