Both Feet in the Air Fault line Question

[Chills1994]

Berkim wrote:

I thought the analogy of the basketball 3 point shot.. was spot on...

The reason I didn't necessarily like the 3 point analogy was that in the USPSA rulebook there is a lot of lee way there for a MD or stage designer to put stuff in the way that I shooter could either touch or lean on or land on that would bring him a foot fault...and still...kinda almost look like the shooter was legal and in the box.

Plus whatever stage specific written briefing that might have spelled out for the shooter to XYZ.

Sure...sure...if all you have is a big box/fault line, a few targets, and just a big empty bay unencumbered by props or walls, then, yeah, it is a lot like sprinting from the half point line to the 3 point line, jumping and while in midair throwing the ball at the basket.

[Skizeks]

I can see it now, when the next rule book comes out it will be about 450 pages and each match will have to have a real lawer at it.

Some people just can't see the forest through the trees.

Duane

[Chills1994]

There again, a picture or a diagram/sketch really would be worth a 1,000 words.

For whatever it is worth to ya, the current USPSA rulebook is 92 pages long. The IDPA rule book is 82 pages long, 5 of which are dedicated to the one and only classifier... so really going apples to apples, it is 77 pages versus 92.

And IIRC, from my RO class, what Gary Stevens said was that, yeah, the USPSA rulebook was written with input from attorneys.

[G-ManBart]

For whatever it's worth, I was still uncertain about what to do when I met a reluctant popper. It was only until Gary Stevens set us right at a Level I RO class that I felt confident in knowing what to do for the next balky popper I would meet.

This is the sort of stuff that made me think to start the "Tips for Newbies" thread in the beginners section. I actually covered stubborn steel because it's such a common problem. I don't think anybody covered fault lines or boxes quite like this, but it's worth adding there. R,

[Nik Habicht]

Maybe there should be a rule in the rulebook that stages shouldn't force a shooter or an encourage a shooter to do Jackie Chan/Jet Li type maneuvers in order to complete a CoF.

Just sayin'...

Encourage is where I have a problem. The sport was founded on the principle of finding the solution to obtaining the highest hit factor ---- if that way involves aggressively shooting to the end of a freefire zone and needing to step out before shooting, i wouldn't want to discourage that. The shooter runs a risk --- and the rulebook provides a penalty if they touch down outside the box....

[Chills1994]

My beef is with CoF's that have you intentionally lean so far out around a prop/wall/barricade, while you have one foot right on top of the 2X2, that you fianlly end up unloading and showing clear with both feet in the "fault zone", because it was such a stretch to put two good shots on the farthest in and last target of the array.

We are drifting again...

And I remember being in an argument with a BE'er here about some really low ports at, I think it was, this year's Area 3 .

I think he said he had a bad back or bad knees or both.

In a way, now, yeah, I can kinda see his point...to a degree... let me emphasize that again...ahem...to a degree matches should be about testing shooting ability...not necessarily an agility contest.

My use of the phrase "Jackie Chan/Jet Li" is/was hyperbole. I really don't expect nor do I want Matrix movie like stages. I think our senior and super senior members would agree. That is a good way to tick off a good chunk of the USPSA demographic.

Yeah, I do like the free style-ness of USPSA, but....

oh...I dunno...that "P" in USPSA once stood for practical

[Chills1994]

I agree with you Nick in that for an X amount of risk, there should be a Y amount of reward.

Aggressive is fine. I don't have a probably with that.

What I have a problem with is that a CoF could theoretically so tip the playing field in the favor of the spry 18 year old or 20 year old competitor and "disenfranchise" the 40 year old and older segment of USPSA. And could theoretically represent more of a safety issue that it outweighs any possible reward by committing to such risky behavior.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Chills1994

[LPatterson]

Cabin fever settin' in yet, there LPatterson?

Actually it did, we had a chinook wind came through raised the temperature above freezing so the ice started melting. Nice and sunny so I grabbed the 22's (ground mostly snow covered) by the time I drove the 15 miles to the range the sun went into hiding and the wind picked up to about 30 MPH. The range is on the side of a butte surrounded by about 30,000 acres of wheat fields so it is possible to hear the wind singing through the power lines.

I hung some steel from the 25 yard target frames (bullseye range) and backed of to 15 yards for some transitions. Started with the 617 because I had 8 speed loaders loaded, stocking cap, ear muffs and a left hand glove and started blasting away. I'm on the 6th or 7th speed loader and I noticed some of the shots sounded weak, some cheap Winchester stuff. Back at the table recharged the speed loaders with Remington and started over at 20 yards, at least 1 in 10 fail to fire, shot em up. Back for Federal bulk pack, moved the targets to about 15' apart went through another 8 loaders with only a couple odd sound rounds. Had a guy show up and start putting his stuff out at the firing line 10 yards behind me so I decided it was time to go home. He seemed upset when I took my steel targets down.

[G-ManBart]

Cabin fever settin' in yet, there LPatterson?

Actually it did, we had a chinook wind came through raised the temperature above freezing so the ice started melting. Nice and sunny so I grabbed the 22's (ground mostly snow covered) by the time I drove the 15 miles to the range the sun went into hiding and the wind picked up to about 30 MPH. The range is on the side of a butte surrounded by about 30,000 acres of wheat fields so it is possible to hear the wind singing through the power lines.

I seem to remember that range!

As cold as it gets there it would be nice to be able to shoot everything with both feet in the air

Edited December 19, 2009 by G-ManBart

[Nik Habicht]

I agree with you Nick in that for an X amount of risk, there should be a Y amount of reward.

Aggressive is fine. I don't have a probably with that.

What I have a problem with is that a CoF could theoretically so tip the playing field in the favor of the spry 18 year old or 20 year old competitor and "disenfranchise" the 40 year old and older segment of USPSA. And could theoretically represent more of a safety issue that it outweighs any possible reward by committing to such risky behavior.

I'm in my 40s ---- there's things that the youngsters (and some oldsters) can do that have me wincing from watching.....

This is a game with some physical elements --- they make it different from Bullseye, or AP, or Steel Challenge. I like those elements. And USPSA thoughtfully provided methods for dealing with a competitor who can't complete a task without modification....

[wide45]

A large part of what fault lines are for, is to prevent competitors from getting to a position where they might take shots that will go in an unsafe direction, such as over the berm. At what point does rule 10.4.1 come into play?

[LPatterson]

When it is accidental. Section 10. 5 covers unsafe gun handling and appears to omit the problem originally discussed.

[Jim Norman]

Wow, so much discussion over a simple question. What is In? What is Out? This has been discussed and decided so long ago. If you are IN the shooting area it means one part of your body has touched the ground or top of the fault line and no part of your body is touching anywhere not within the area defined by the fault lines. If you are OUT this means that some part of your body is now touching outside the shooting area or that you have not yet entered the shooting area.

As for airborne shooting being for the young, I have run to the last position where I had to shoot around a wall and fired my last shots as I was falling or leaping out of the FFZ, but NO PART of my body had yet touched outside the FFZ.

If you really want the shooter to stand in a box and shoot, it isn’t that hard to set a requirement with in the COF that will preclude leaving early. Nail a piece or rope to the ground and require that the shooter be holding on to the rope while engaging targets. Any shot fired while not holding the rope will incur a per shot procedural. Simple.

There was a match in Area 7 a few years back that had a stage with a raided shooting platform, 2 feet wide x maybe 12 feet long, this was up on a couple tires to make it less than stable. We were not allowed to start shooting until both feet were on the platform, in other words one foot on and the other airborne was not allowed, however once you were on the platform you could move so one foot could be on the air. The reason given was for safety. There were a lot of other problems at this match besides this (Calibration of plates anyone?, Frangible targets for handgun?) that were outside the rules as well. One shooter received a stage zero for not signing a scoresheet because a plate turned and he was told they’d calibrate it. Long story, not germane, suffice to say they didn’t follow the rules and that sounds like what some people are saying should be done here. The rule is clear. Follow it. Otherwise we won’t have a sport, just a loose collection of matches with no common rules.

Now, I will admit, I have championed a rule that would allow the designer to stipulate that the shooter cannot leave the FFZ, however I would not argue even then that the shooter couldn’t go airborne at the end. He could even leap across a corner, but he would incur a procedural it he touched down outside regardless of firing a shot. Not the same as the argument being made here by some in favor of not allowing you to have a foot, or even both feet, in the air when leaving a box and firing on a target.

Jim

[wide45]

When it is accidental. Section 10. 5 covers unsafe gun handling and appears to omit the problem originally discussed.

Hmmm, That's logical, and a concept I've not seen.

The onus is properly kept on the competitor to keep his shots safe when going outside the box.

Edited December 20, 2009 by wide45

[mactiger]

Wow, so much discussion over a simple question. What is In? What is Out? This has been discussed and decided so long ago. If you are IN the shooting area it means one part of your body has touched the ground or top of the fault line and no part of your body is touching anywhere not within the area defined by the fault lines. If you are OUT this means that some part of your body is now touching outside the shooting area or that you have not yet entered the shooting area.

Jim

Actually, you don't have to touch the shooting area at all, you just can't be touching outside it while firing a shot. You could be moving into the shooting area and have not yet touched the ground, yet still fire a shot without penalty, as long as you weren't touching outside the shooting area.

Troy

[mhs]

Wow, so much discussion over a simple question. What is In? What is Out? This has been discussed and decided so long ago. If you are IN the shooting area it means one part of your body has touched the ground or top of the fault line and no part of your body is touching anywhere not within the area defined by the fault lines. If you are OUT this means that some part of your body is now touching outside the shooting area or that you have not yet entered the shooting area.

Jim

Actually, you don't have to touch the shooting area at all, you just can't be touching outside it while firing a shot. You could be moving into the shooting area and have not yet touched the ground, yet still fire a shot without penalty, as long as you weren't touching outside the shooting area.

Troy

I must be having comprehension issues again. Are you saying that, given a COF with an array that must be engaged only from box A, and a single target that must be engaged only from box B, that it would be leagal to engage the array from box A, step out of the box, jump toward box B, and engage the target before touching the ground? Or do you mean that you would need to land in the box for the shots to be legal?

[Madmark]

Safe gun handling being paramount, I could see an infraction being issued even if shooting in air was expressly allowed.

At a club level match some years back, my feet slipped out in front of me on the wet grass while deccelerating to step into the shooters box. While I was falling, I twisted my body to keep my muzzle pointed towards the berm (with my finger out of the trigger, of course) and bounced right into the box. I took my shots with my ass and left elbow planted in the middle of the box and my feet in the air outside the box. As awkward as this sounds, It was deemed safe by the RO, and my shots counted since they were fired from the shooting box, no part of my body touched outside the box, and the gun was always in control and pointed safely downrange.

No competitive advantage was gained by this particular manuever, however...

[mactiger]

I must be having comprehension issues again. Are you saying that, given a COF with an array that must be engaged only from box A, and a single target that must be engaged only from box B, that it would be leagal to engage the array from box A, step out of the box, jump toward box B, and engage the target before touching the ground? Or do you mean that you would need to land in the box for the shots to be legal?

Yes. You do not need to land in "B" for the shots to be legal, as long as you are not touching the ground or any other object outside of box B.

And, just for clarity, shooting while leaping is, I suspect, pretty rare, but shooting while moving isn't, and there are times when you are entering a designated shooting area and both feet could be off the ground.

Here's the complete rule:

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any

target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one

procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while

faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots

while faulting.

There is no rule in the book about what constitutes being "in" a box, only what constitutes being out of a box (or faulting a line). A more common specific example would be a competitor who is running into a shooting area (box), and has both feet off the ground when he fires his first shot. This is not a fault, since he's not touching outside the designated shooting area and firing a shot. Since there is no "in the box" definition, he is in the box as long as he's not touching outside.

Hope this helps.

Troy

[rgkeller]

No disrespect, but I have a hard time buying the above until I see an official NROI ruling.

[Chills1994]

Troy's post up there should be cut'ed and paste'ed in G-manBart's new shooter thread over in the BEginner's subforum.

Okay... dragging this out one more step or evolution, if I was standing in Box A , and let's say Box B is just like 2 feet away. The CoF description says to engage T1 and T2 from "within" Box A, and then to engage T3 from "within" Box B. So the buzzer goes off...T1 gets two shots...T2 gets two shots, and then I just jump vertically (not horizontally, not in the direction of Box B ) and sling two shots at T3 while in midair. My feet land back inside the wodden two by two perimeter of Box A....

Do I get dinged with a procedural?

Edited December 21, 2009 by Chills1994

[Nik Habicht]

Troy's post up there should be cut'ed and paste'ed in G-manBart's new shooter thread over in the BEginner's subforum.

Okay... dragging this out one more step or evolution, if I was standing in Box A , and let's say Box B is just like 2 feet away. The CoF description says to engage T1 and T2 from "within" Box A, and then to engage T3 from "within" Box B. So the buzzer goes off...T1 gets two shots...T2 gets two shots, and then I just jump vertically (not horizontally, not in the direction of Box B ) and sling two shots at T3. My feet land back inside the wodden two by two perimeter of Box A....

Do I get dinged with a procedural?

Naw, I'd call that bad stage design.....

[mhs]

I must be having comprehension issues again. Are you saying that, given a COF with an array that must be engaged only from box A, and a single target that must be engaged only from box B, that it would be leagal to engage the array from box A, step out of the box, jump toward box B, and engage the target before touching the ground? Or do you mean that you would need to land in the box for the shots to be legal?

Yes. You do not need to land in "B" for the shots to be legal, as long as you are not touching the ground or any other object outside of box B.

And, just for clarity, shooting while leaping is, I suspect, pretty rare, but shooting while moving isn't, and there are times when you are entering a designated shooting area and both feet could be off the ground.

Here's the complete rule:

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any

target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one

procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while

faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots

while faulting.

There is no rule in the book about what constitutes being "in" a box, only what constitutes being out of a box (or faulting a line). A more common specific example would be a competitor who is running into a shooting area (box), and has both feet off the ground when he fires his first shot. This is not a fault, since he's not touching outside the designated shooting area and firing a shot. Since there is no "in the box" definition, he is in the box as long as he's not touching outside.

Hope this helps.

Troy

This does help. So is it correct to say that if you are in the air, not touching the ground or any other part of the stage, you are technically in all the shooting boxes at once until you land?

Thanks for your help,

Mark

[wide45]

No disrespect, but I have a hard time buying the above until I see an official NROI ruling.

This rule has not changed in a very long time. Shooting with both feet off the ground has not been a problem.

Edited December 21, 2009 by wide45

[big_kahuna]

Glad I found this thread. This exact topic came up at our local match today. A shooter fired two shots (and got both hits) on a target while leaping through the air... he landed outside the fault lines but his shots were completed while airborne. Match director's ruling was "no penalty" because he had not touched the ground outside the fault lines. Nevertheless, there was a lively discussion by other competitors who didn't agree that the shooter was "in" the shooting area because both feet had left the ground.

[mactiger]

No disrespect, but I have a hard time buying the above until I see an official NROI ruling.

Not a problem. I'm writing a note to to John and the rest of the instructor corps right now. We'll discuss it, but it's been beat to death over the years. I didn't make this up--it's what the rule says. If you can find a rule in the book that defines what "in the box" means, other than the one I cited (which, granted, defines what "in the box" means by defining what out of the box means), please cite it.

The problem here is that most people are used to running freestyle stages, where there are no boxes, but there is (usually) a defined shooting area, so "out of the box" is the main question that arises. Classifiers with movement between boxes are kind of scarce, so the question doesn't come up often. I can't find anything that says that once you've touched outside a fault line or box that you can't fire a shot without penalty, as long as you aren't touching the ground or another object. Might bring a whole new aspect to freestyle--the "lords a leapin'" stage or something similar...

One thing to consider if you are a course designer--if you want your targets shot from a particular spot, then make them only available from that spot.

Troy