Stock selection, not length this time, but weight.

[kwrangln]

There's been some web talk lately about balancing AR rifles for better handling. Seems most of the "tactical" folks aren't that concerned with it since they usually end up with a muzzle heavy setup anyway due to lights, lazers, forward grips, etc. I am nowhere near tactical, and don't compete, but would like to dig a little deeper into the subject, especially with input from the 3-gun crowd.

Long range shooters have for years sought out heavier setups for stability, sometimes adding lead weights to the butt stocks, and even lead weights under the handguards. Definatly not the direction I want to go. For the most part I think the mindset of lighter is better has been long thought of as the best way to go. I can see this as being a benefit, less weight to carry around, less weight to swing around, and overall a more nimble package. More recently, a post on another board from a 3-gun shooter who also shoots a lot of carbine classes got me thinking by stating that he preferrs a heavier stock to bias weight to the rear of the rifle and in his opinion make it easier to transition from target to target. I can see some merit to this line of thought, adding a bit of weight to the rear where it is shouldered making the front end seem lighter and easier to drive. Seeing some vids posted by Cold seems to support this as it appears most of the Noveske team is running PRS stocks in matches.

Not long after I purchased my AR, I swapped out the M4 style collapsible stock it came with to an Ace ARFX stock. I greatly prefer how solid it feels, it's light weight, and for the shooting I was doing the length was perfect. As I move from stationary shooting to more active shooting, I feel it's a bit on the long side and am considering going back to an adjustable so I can square up to the rifle more instead of blading my body so much. While I'm' at it, I may play around with a heavier stock as well just to see how it feels. Since I want it to be solid no matter what, I've been looking at the Magpul offerings, CTR, ACS, and UBR due to thier secondary friction locks. Currently the front end of my rifle is about as light as I can make it without reprofiling the barrel, or using a much shorter handguard (16" middy with Troy 13" TRX-Extreme floater tube, no extra rail sections). Currently, most of the weight on my rifle is right around the mag well due to the 1x4 scope and mount, and I've been playing around with a Redi-Mag. While I'm not going to say money is no object, I'm not to worried about it if it may help my shooting a bit.

So, to the crux of the matter, I'd like to see if I can improve my rifles handeling.

Lighter is always better?

A bit of weight at the stock actually can help bias a rifle so that it is easier to drive from target to target?

Thanks in advance for any insight you can share.

[joshua79109]

I've recently gotten interested in this as well - weight vs balance.

I have a new carbine that - feels - different than my AR with the same set up. I read an article that shows some of the info and tested my carbines and found that the one the I liked the feel of more does have a rear weight bias.

I had not given it much thought until I shot each during the same range trip and found that even though they are dressed the same and almost weight the same - one of them feels much lighter than the other.

I'm sure there are some good arguments for what is better, but I'd imagine that it really just comes down to personal preference. It could also (possibly) be related to body type, sling, grip, etc.....

Keep us up to date with your testing, I for one am interested.

[VinceU1]

I haven't shot any three gun matches yet (got a couple of kids and a grandson. They eat up LOTS of time.), but I've gone with a weight bias to the front of the gun for hunting. For me, the gun just seems to sit in my hands a bit more steadily than with a butt heavy gun. I don't worry when I'm hunting about how fast I can drive the barrel because most game is at least 100yds away and moving relatively slowly from my point of view. I've also noticed with a shotgun (and trust me on this one, I don't shoot them well at all) I can follow birds and what not better with a lighter barrel. Take my .02 for what it's worth.

Vince

[kwrangln]

Here's a couple web articles that got me thinking about the subject.

Link 1

Link 2

[StealthyBlagga]

My opinion is that "weight" and "balance" should be considered separately. Regarding weight, the heavier guns absorb recoil better but are harder to handle and more tiring for smaller shooters - I recommend using the heaviest gun you can manage. As for balance, this is more of a personal thing; a muzzle-heavy balance will steady the gun (less crosshair wobble) and reduce muzzle flip, but will be harder to start/stop during target transitions; a butt-heavy balance will be easier to start/stop during target transitions, but will be more "nervous" on aim and in recoil.

To some extent the right solution varies by shooter, particularly their physical size/strength. I am 5'11"" and 210lbs - I actually prefer a light buttstock (MagPul CTR) and a heavy barrel (full 20"HBAR). I find I can drive this combination adequately fast (I tend to be one of the fastest guys on close-range hoser stages) and yet the muzzle is pretty steady. YMMV.

[00bullitt]

It really boils down to personal preference based on what works for you. I've had various different setups over the past several years of competitive 3 gunning. The gun I have setup now is the best handling, best shooting gun I have had yet.

I will say that my setups differ from my competition rifle to my work rifle. They have similarities but are setup based on the task at hand.

I like my competition rifle to have at least a neutral balance or a slight rearward weight. I do not like to have to support the front of my rifle. I like it to somewhat float so that I can drive it aggressively and stop it quickly. Alot of the balance is achieved by adding weight to the buttstock or using a heavier type of stock such as the Magpul PRS. But I have gone to lengths to minimize weight up front by adding a lightweight handguard and a barrel profile that suited me. I chose to start using the PRS after using an A1 stock that I added weight to. I realized I liked the rifle length recoil system and the better balance from adding the weight. It made my offhand shooting much more stable. I was able to make much faster and more accurate shots out to 100 yards with total confidence. Less fatigue of having to support the rifle weight out front worked much better for me.

I then decided to get the Magpul PRS due to its adjustability and durability. The A1 stock still felt breakable and lacked any adjustment. There have been times in the middle of a stage that the dreaded stuck round reared its ugly head and its just necessary to run the buttstock into the ground while applying rearward pressure to the charging handle to clear the malfunction. Collapsible stocks pose a problem for that type of clearance and require an extra steop to collapse it before buttstroking it to the ground. And then....it still may break the tube off. The PRS is an extremely durable stock in that aspect. While adding the weight and excellent strength for durability it also is fully adjustable for length of pull past the length of an A1 out to longer than an A2 if that much length may be needed. It also has an adjustable cheekpiece. The added weight of the PRS was about 2 ounces heavier than the weight I added to the A1. My rifle balances and shoots like a dream for me. I am not small. I'm 5' 10 and 235#. I have the ability and mass to tote the heaviest of rifles. I prefer one that will.....for the lack of better terms....darn near shoot itself.

There is more to my rifle than just the stock. But that was a big step in getting my rifle setup FOR ME. Also consider having to shoot in unorthodox and out of balance positions. The less work you have to do to support the rifle in competition...common sense sort of told me I could shoot it better. I tried to shoot heavy barreled and front heavy rifles. Just didn't work near as good for me. I could go into several more paragraphs at how I arrived at setting up my rifle over the course of the last couple of years but I'll stick to the topic on hand about stock weight and my choice for the PRS on my competition rifle.

Will it be the best setup for you? Maybe. Setting up your rifle to get something you are comfortable shooting and totally confident in usually starts with an evolutionary process. Things will change as you learn and gain more experience in the game and as a rifleman.

[mpeltier]

My experience with rifle balance/handling mirrors Todd almost exactly. I found a heavier rifle was faster on splits and a touch slower in transitions and a light rifle just the opposite. It all balances out in the end though when you run a stage. I have found my perfect balance with a combined rifle and optic that weighs 9 lbs 1 oz with scope mounted. Also with a PRS stock for a more rearward balance, with a fluted medium bbl and PRI carbon fiber forearm.

Bottom line is, dont get to hung up on weight. Build what suits you and shoot the heck out of it.

[Tattoo]

It really boils down to personal preference based on what works for you. I've had various different setups over the past several years of competitive 3 gunning. The gun I have setup now is the best handling, best shooting gun I have had yet.

I will say that my setups differ from my competition rifle to my work rifle. They have similarities but are setup based on the task at hand.

I like my competition rifle to have at least a neutral balance or a slight rearward weight. I do not like to have to support the front of my rifle. I like it to somewhat float so that I can drive it aggressively and stop it quickly. Alot of the balance is achieved by adding weight to the buttstock or using a heavier type of stock such as the Magpul PRS. But I have gone to lengths to minimize weight up front by adding a lightweight handguard and a barrel profile that suited me. I chose to start using the PRS after using an A1 stock that I added weight to. I realized I liked the rifle length recoil system and the better balance from adding the weight. It made my offhand shooting much more stable. I was able to make much faster and more accurate shots out to 100 yards with total confidence. Less fatigue of having to support the rifle weight out front worked much better for me.

I then decided to get the Magpul PRS due to its adjustability and durability. The A1 stock still felt breakable and lacked any adjustment. There have been times in the middle of a stage that the dreaded stuck round reared its ugly head and its just necessary to run the buttstock into the ground while applying rearward pressure to the charging handle to clear the malfunction. Collapsible stocks pose a problem for that type of clearance and require an extra steop to collapse it before buttstroking it to the ground. And then....it still may break the tube off. The PRS is an extremely durable stock in that aspect. While adding the weight and excellent strength for durability it also is fully adjustable for length of pull past the length of an A1 out to longer than an A2 if that much length may be needed. It also has an adjustable cheekpiece. The added weight of the PRS was about 2 ounces heavier than the weight I added to the A1. My rifle balances and shoots like a dream for me. I am not small. I'm 5' 10 and 235#. I have the ability and mass to tote the heaviest of rifles. I prefer one that will.....for the lack of better terms....darn near shoot itself.

There is more to my rifle than just the stock. But that was a big step in getting my rifle setup FOR ME. Also consider having to shoot in unorthodox and out of balance positions. The less work you have to do to support the rifle in competition...common sense sort of told me I could shoot it better. I tried to shoot heavy barreled and front heavy rifles. Just didn't work near as good for me. I could go into several more paragraphs at how I arrived at setting up my rifle over the course of the last couple of years but I'll stick to the topic on hand about stock weight and my choice for the PRS on my competition rifle.

Will it be the best setup for you? Maybe. Setting up your rifle to get something you are comfortable shooting and totally confident in usually starts with an evolutionary process. Things will change as you learn and gain more experience in the game and as a rifleman.

Can the PRS Stock be adjusted to a length shorter than A1?

T

[00bullitt]

Nope.....the shortest it can go is basically the length of the rifle buffer tube which is A1 length.

[Tattoo]

Nope.....the shortest it can go is basically the length of the rifle buffer tube which is A1 length.

Bummer, I may go the weight in the buttstock route first to try out the weight. Were you just trying

to balance the rifle or actually go for a buttstock heavy feel? Thanks,

T

[spd522]

My fastest and best balanced rifle is a 11.5" with a UBR stock and Miculek brake. I haven't shot really long distances

with it but have shot USPSA targets at 300 yds and kept all shots on it with both irons and Burris FastFire dot.

The gun just barely moves with recoil, is extremely fast on close targets, and great manueverability. Very loud though.

Originally I had a CTR stock on it but the UBR balanced better for me.

So put me down for the shorter length and lighter front vote.

Craig

[kwrangln]

Well, I'm pretty sold on the UBR, now I just have to find a decent price somewhere that has it in stock. Waiting on Magpul to get back to me about a mil discount, if they don't have one, AIM looks to be the best bet at 251 with .01 shipping. Brownell's comes to 248 delivered, but it's backordered, it's worth the 3 bucks to get it sooner.

Anyone know of somewhere to get one cheaper?

[Les Snyder]

mine is pretty well balanced and nothing special.... Rock River 16in full float intermediate gas tube, Miculeck brake, single rail for vertical fore grip I use as monopod, Endine buffer, 4x32 ACOG with offset irons, and a Viet Nam era A1 stock. I like the stock length and the rounded butt pad of the A1.

regards

Les

[kwrangln]

Well, I got the UBR stock the other day and installed it. From the limited bit of dryfire I've done so far, I'm impressed. The ACE stock I had was way too long for whipping the gun around, this feels much better shortened up. The weight is barely noticable, but it manouvers pretty quick. Can't wait to get to the range to try it out. Probably hit an indoor range to start with since I need to try out the .22 conversion as well.

[HPD SRT]

How about listing weights of handguard/stocks by themselves. I'm looking to lighten up and am currently running a rifle length VTAC on a Stealth upper, with a Ace Socom stock (Heavy). Sucker feels heavy as hell, I don't have a scale so sorry. Would like to see the individual weights of stocks and handguards though.

[Graham Smith]

How about listing weights of handguard/stocks by themselves.

I've been looking at handguards myself and am not having much luck finding information about the weights of various handguards. I would assume that the carbon fiber versions are the lightest, but the vented aluminum may be as light or lighter.

Not sure where to look to find the info.

[patrickbeijer]

I did some tests on weight with goodies i have (or had) in my collection, i did do it on almost all parts of my AR's and did put it in a excel sheet.

Maybe you have some use for it

My link

[Graham Smith]

I did some tests on weight with goodies i have (or had) in my collection, i did do it on almost all parts of my AR's and did put it in a excel sheet.

Thanks much. I did find a couple weights at Brownells. Enough to see that the Clark CF was only 6.2oz compared to a DPMS vented at 13oz and the JP at 15oz. Very revealing.

[Triggerbender]

How about listing weights of handguard/stocks by themselves.

I've been looking at handguards myself and am not having much luck finding information about the weights of various handguards. I would assume that the carbon fiber versions are the lightest, but the vented aluminum may be as light or lighter.

Not sure where to look to find the info.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=172238

[spd522]

The Clark is the lightest you will find. It is not as versatile as the others. Nor is it

that easy to remove and re-install at the correct index point. I have them on two of my

guns and work fine if you realize the limitations. One is on a light barrel upper with a

Cav Arms lower. Unbelievably light weight.

Craig

[Graham Smith]

Nor is it that easy to remove and re-install at the correct index point.

It looks like it gets glued to the aluminum nut. I would think it could be screwed to it instead, but I don't have one to look at.

[patrickbeijer]

I have 1 intstalled on my 18''JP15 upper but i did not trust only the gleu so i drilled and taped 3 extra screws to hold it secure.

I have 1 on my Nordic 10/22 conversion as well but that one is only glue but it stayed in place so far

I like the weight ,but i like the diameter off the Vtac better

[caspian guy]

As far as the clark goes you can drill the tube and the barrel nut. However there isn't reall enough meat to tap the barrel nut. Our work around was to use high temp epoxy to glue tnuts to the barrel nut. Then you can do as was suggested and screw the tube to the nut.

If jp would sell the vtac barrel nut seprately I would probably use that and source a carbon tube to fit it.

[Graham Smith]

As far as the clark goes you can drill the tube and the barrel nut. However there isn't reall enough meat to tap the barrel nut. Our work around was to use high temp epoxy to glue tnuts to the barrel nut. Then you can do as was suggested and screw the tube to the nut.

I was asking a friend (who works with aluminum fittings on boats quite a bit) about a way to do just that. He suggested just roughing up the aluminum surface and gluing a nut in place - he said even hot glue might work. His point was the glue doesn't need to be permanant, it only has to hold the nut in place while the bolt is screwed to it, after that, the bolt/nut holds things in place. He did, however, suggest a washer on both sides and to bend the washers a bit (if needed) to fit the curve.

[patrickbeijer]

This is how i did it

First gleu and the drilled and taped 2 extra screws then i fitted the lower screw with a PRI 3 '' rail ,under the handguard they are connected ,so the rail also holds the nut and the tube.

The idea off the VTac barrel nut with carbon tube allready crossed my mind too but most off the weight is in the barrel nut off the VTac

Edited February 25, 2010 by patrickbeijer