Unsafe gun handling?

[Sarge]

I was not RO'ing but I think I would have DQ'd a shooter for the following. Shoots a classifier and forgets a mandatory reload so of course the procedurals added up quickly. On his last shot he realizes his mistake and just jams his gun into his holster and starts to turn around. The RO does a good job of getting him under control and has him pull the gun back out and clear it then holster.

I would have called him on unsafe handling but is that really the infraction in this case? Just wondering if my call would hold up in court.

[XRe]

Doesn't sound like he did anything unsafe... Maybe a little immature, but not unsafe...

[Sarge]

Doesn't sound like he did anything unsafe... Maybe a little immature, but not unsafe...

Good point on the immaturity. It still just looked unsafe to me. (I know there is nothing in the rules about "looking" unsafe) Maybe I am just anal but I pretty much do exactly as an RO tells me WHEN he tells me to do it to eliminate any potential problems.

[SteveU]

Holstering during the COF (Between the Make Ready and Range is Clear commands) is allowed, but discouraged. Holstering specifically is permitted as long as it is in the ready conditions specified in 8.1 or unloaded (8.2.5).

If it was holstered during the COF with a round in the chamber or magazine and safety off, then DQ. (10.5.11)

The rules on this are clear and depend on the condition of the holstered firearm.

[elynch2007]

The shooter may holster the gun, so no rules were broken. It is better to have the gun holstered than in the hands of someone who is mad at himself because he knows he messed up. The RO did his job and made sure to give the If Clear command

[FranDoc]

"8.2.5: A COF must never require the competitor to re-holster a handgun after the start signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1."

If the gun was safe while the shooter collected himself (shooter re-holstered and re-applied the safety) ... no DQ.

If the shooter left the box (this particular classifier required staying in a box behind a barricade) with the safety off, then 10.5.11 (as previously mentioned) and 10.5.13 apply, and a DQ would be appropriate under those Sections.

Sounds like a good job and some very quick thinking-on-his-feet on the RO's part.

[Singlestack]

If the shooter left the box (this particular classifier required staying in a box behind a barricade) with the safety off, then 10.5.11 (as previously mentioned) and 10.5.13 apply, and a DQ would be appropriate under those Sections.

Does not matter if he left the box or not if he holstered with the Safety off.

[Nik Habicht]

Maybe I am just anal but I pretty much do exactly as an RO tells me WHEN he tells me to do it to eliminate any potential problems.

When calling the game on the range, just remove what you normally do from consideration -- judge the competitor's actions based on the rules....

[boz1911]

I've only holstered a gun one time during a COF. It was a COF that was being "gamed". But I let the RO know what I was doing. It's not illegal just unusual.

[aztecdriver]

I had this happen last week with a friend of mine that is new and doesn't get to come out and play on a regular basis. His name was up first on the stage and it was a stage that required a freestyle engagement, then pick up a briefcase, move to a closer box and engage the targets again - obviously to force the strong hand only engagement. In this situation - it was the first time he'd ever run a stage that had a prop. The course of fire ended after the last shot strong hand, and finding himself holding the briefcase and a bit of nerves that come with the buzzer and being a bit of a newbie, on unload and show clear, looked down at the briefcase, the weapon, and put it in the holster. As it was going in, I instinctively told him to stop, he slowly put the briefcase down, and said - I just felt it was the safe thing to do. I understood where he was coming from, but then again issued unload and show clear... and finished. It was a safely reholstered weapon, never turned, or did anything untoward, just got a little confuzzled holding the case.

As everything in this sport, it will happen, we just need to play by the rules. Unlike your previous example, this one was just a case of newness and nerves.

BTW, same stage a few shooters later I had my first squib as an RO - and unfortunately for me, I was wearing my new form fitted ear plugs and it sounded like a click, not a poof. Luckily, I had a very veteran staff member holding the clipboard, and she stopped him (Thanks Cindy). Lesson learned, i'll always RO with my active noise muffs on. I would have heard it and been able to stop them.

Edited November 12, 2009 by aztecdriver

[Field]

i just dont get how even after the RO says "THEN PERFORM A MANDATORY RELOAD" the guy forgets to friggin reload i mean srsly.

[boz1911]

The course of fire ended after the last shot strong hand, and finding himself holding the briefcase and a bit of nerves that come with the buzzer and being a bit of a newbie, on unload and show clear, looked down at the briefcase, the weapon, and put it in the holster. As it was going in, I instinctively told him to stop, he slowly put the briefcase down, and said - I just felt it was the safe thing to do.

"Stop" ? the COF not being finished. Grounds for a reshoot??

[dajarrel]

"Stop" ? the COF not being finished. Grounds for a reshoot??

Probably but.... Add up the variables. inexperienced shooter, nervous, confused about what to do, and Level 1 match allowing coaching. Probably was the best thing to do. The shooter was even through shooting. He just ended up with the "deer in the headlights" look.

Wasn't there, but that's how it seemed to be described.

fwiw

dj

Edited November 12, 2009 by dajarrel

[sperman]

i just dont get how even after the RO says "THEN PERFORM A MANDATORY RELOAD" the guy forgets to friggin reload i mean srsly.

It must be nice to have never had a brain fart. I've done much stupider things once the buzzer goes off.

[Singlestack]

i just dont get how even after the RO says "THEN PERFORM A MANDATORY RELOAD" the guy forgets to friggin reload i mean srsly.

Be sure to come back and let us know how those words taste.

[aztecdriver]

"Stop" ? the COF not being finished. Grounds for a reshoot??

Boz, why you always pickin' on me?! What other command should I have given - please don't??

Probably but.... Add up the variables. inexperienced shooter, nervous, confused about what to do, and Level 1 match allowing coaching. Probably was the best thing to do. The shooter was even through shooting. He just ended up with the "deer in the headlights" look.

Wasn't there, but that's how it seemed to be described.

fwiw

dj

Exactly, just put that out there that it can happen, even with people being overly cautious.

[boz1911]

"Stop" ? the COF not being finished. Grounds for a reshoot??

Boz, why you always pickin' on me?! What other command should I have given - please don't??

Probably but.... Add up the variables. inexperienced shooter, nervous, confused about what to do, and Level 1 match allowing coaching. Probably was the best thing to do. The shooter was even through shooting. He just ended up with the "deer in the headlights" look.

Wasn't there, but that's how it seemed to be described.

fwiw

dj

Exactly, just put that out there that it can happen, even with people being overly cautious.

I wasn't there, so perhaps "Stop" was the appropriate response. Not picking on you, just want you to realize what might happen if it's an experienced shooter that just had a sh#tty run. I seem to remember a story about a shooter just walking downrange after finishing shooting until the RO said stop. Uh, reshoot please.

[aztecdriver]

I wasn't there, so perhaps "Stop" was the appropriate response. Not picking on you, just want you to realize what might happen if it's an experienced shooter that just had a sh#tty run. I seem to remember a story about a shooter just walking downrange after finishing shooting until the RO said stop. Uh, reshoot please.

I know you are not picking - i'm just havin' some fun --- reminds me - we need some more smileys. That's a good point, though. dajarrell had it right - and you have seen it before. Personally, I've made the decision I'd rather open the door to a reshoot (reshoot gods are rarely kind), than let something continue beyond my direct control. To that end, the same shooter, same night, on the field course, at the end there was a left to right move with a barricade on the right side and behind that, for everyone else I was running that was experienced, I watched the gun from the left, and on unload and show clear I would swing in around behind them to the right. When he was finishing I had already started to come around his backside and just as he finished, I put my timer hand up behind his left shoulder in case he started to move in that direction. He did slightly as he was starting to look for me, and I touched him enough to let him know to keep himself square and unload the weapon from right there.

Personally, if an experienced shooter asks for a reshoot because of a move like that - i'll know they're exact integrity level.

[Nik Habicht]

"Stop" ? the COF not being finished. Grounds for a reshoot??

Boz, why you always pickin' on me?! What other command should I have given - please don't??

Probably but.... Add up the variables. inexperienced shooter, nervous, confused about what to do, and Level 1 match allowing coaching. Probably was the best thing to do. The shooter was even through shooting. He just ended up with the "deer in the headlights" look.

Wasn't there, but that's how it seemed to be described.

fwiw

dj

Exactly, just put that out there that it can happen, even with people being overly cautious.

I wasn't there, so perhaps "Stop" was the appropriate response. Not picking on you, just want you to realize what might happen if it's an experienced shooter that just had a sh#tty run. I seem to remember a story about a shooter just walking downrange after finishing shooting until the RO said stop. Uh, reshoot please.

O.k. Boz, I'll play: Why do you think that "Stop" must equal a reshoot?

[SA Friday]

I too have said stop while someone was unloading their gun after the 'ulasc' command. It's always been a newer shooter and they were about to do something unsafe. You can see it coming. They don't drop the mag and rack the slide, that's the most common. I remember being new. You brain feels like it's on overload. Everything is done at the conscious level, and it's easy to make simple mistakes.

[dqshooter]

I was not RO'ing but I think I would have DQ'd a shooter for the following. Shoots a classifier and forgets a mandatory reload so of course the procedurals added up quickly. On his last shot he realizes his mistake and just jams his gun into his holster and starts to turn around. The RO does a good job of getting him under control and has him pull the gun back out and clear it then holster.

I would have called him on unsafe handling but is that really the infraction in this case? Just wondering if my call would hold up in court.

Three Questions; Did the stage discription state he could face uprange with a loaded firearm. Did he turn and step out of the box. Did the RO give the "if your finished, unload and show clear" cammand. Sounds like alot of grey area here, I do not believe this specific case is a DQ. I was not there and don't have all the info. Sounds like the RO did a good job of controling the situation, this would be one of those cases where you should take the shooter off to the side and let him know the dangers of the conduct. Just because your haveing a bad day and screw up a stage, doesn't give you the right to be a

J#$%^SS. JMO

[boz1911]

"Stop" ? the COF not being finished. Grounds for a reshoot??

Boz, why you always pickin' on me?! What other command should I have given - please don't??

Probably but.... Add up the variables. inexperienced shooter, nervous, confused about what to do, and Level 1 match allowing coaching. Probably was the best thing to do. The shooter was even through shooting. He just ended up with the "deer in the headlights" look.

Wasn't there, but that's how it seemed to be described.

fwiw

dj

Exactly, just put that out there that it can happen, even with people being overly cautious.

I wasn't there, so perhaps "Stop" was the appropriate response. Not picking on you, just want you to realize what might happen if it's an experienced shooter that just had a sh#tty run. I seem to remember a story about a shooter just walking downrange after finishing shooting until the RO said stop. Uh, reshoot please.

O.k. Boz, I'll play: Why do you think that "Stop" must equal a reshoot?

I didn't say "must", you did. If an RO yells "Stop" though and the COF is not over (which it is not just because the shooter holstered his gun) then a reshoot may be requested by the shooter or offered by the RO.