tuning a 9mmm load for 50 yards

[Macca]

Ok,

ive been working up a 9mm load for 50 yards for wa1500, action and a few other matches.

I have to use lead, and ive tried WST, win231, power pistol, bullseye, unique, ADI AP70N....only other powders really accessible here would be WSF and VV if a shipment ever arrives (VV been out of stock almost all year here)

I have tried, 115, 124, 125, 135, and 147 grain projectiles.

Out of what i shot, the 135grain round nose hard cast performed better hands down in any combination

My loads have all been set at 1.14 OAL

most successful loads have been 3.8 grains bullseye or 5.0 grains power pistol or 4.0 grains AP70N.......but the group sizes are still a little large

oh, load is for an STI targetmaster.

recommendations for OAL? or other suggestions that may help? the loads tested have all been very consistent.....very similar velocities shot-to-shot so the loads have been 'loaded' consistently.

the 3 most successful were all moving somewhere between 1080-1090 for bullseye & ap70n, and close to 1200 for the power pistol.

anyway...if anyone has suggestions that might help i'd appreciate it.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Try loading a little longer to 1.160" OAL. I am not a Bullseye/long range pistol shooter but some guys here are and should be able to help you out more. Thanks, Eric

[Hi-Power Jack]

What sized groups have you been getting?

[M109R]

I am shooting 160g round nose lead bullets out of a Glock 34 with a KKM gunsmith fit barrel and it will shoot 2" 10 shot groups at 30yards, have not shot it at 50.

[L9X25]

Check your chamber throat depth and load just short of that for the best accuracy. Also minimal crimp.

[BMartens]

I don't have much luck with lead bullets in 9mm out of my CZ SP-01 and standard M&P with one exception, the 147 grain bullets. Both guns seem to like those quite a bit. I load 3.9 grains of WSF to OAL of 1.140 for the CZ and 1.163 for the M&P. The magazine restricts the CZ OAL a little.

Missouri Bullets has a lead CFP and Black Bullets International has a moly that is the same profile. BBI also has a 130 that I have been shooting a lot lately. Both bullets work well with WSF powder.

You might try one of the bullseye web sites too. See what they are loading for 50 yards for the M9 service pistol. I've heard with a very tuned M9 they are getting 1.25" groups at 50 yards these days. They will certainly have a good load for this range.

[gose]

Is there a reason for the no lead requirement?

The H&N galvanically copper plated bullets are softer than a traditional FMJ or JHP and they are very accurate. Even though they couldn't beat some of the traditional JHP bullets out of my 210s, I was still getting 1.5"-2" 7 shot groups at 50m.

Edited November 5, 2009 by gose

[Macca]

What sized groups have you been getting?

maybe 4-5 inches at 25 yards.... out of 9 shots....3 or 4 will be sub 2" but then there are always a few that are a bit more scattered...and yeh i made sure the same powder weight and oal etc...although there are likely some variations in bullet weight but they should be minimal.

[Macca]

Is there a reason for the no lead requirement?

The H&N galvanically copper plated bullets are softer than a traditional FMJ or JHP and they are very accurate. Even though they couldn't beat some of the traditional JHP bullets out of my 210s, I was still getting 1.5"-2" 7 shot groups at 50m.

yes...range is only approved for lead....

[gm iprod]

Macca,

Seeing as you are in Sydney I would look at Top Score or Hawkesbury River coated projectiles.

I have used the 122gr FP from TopScore and the 125gr Conical from Hawkesbury.

I load about 4.5gr of 231 loaded to 1.225" in a 38Super. All will stay at or under 3" at 50. In a 9mm all you would have to do is back the powder charge to about 4.0gr to suit that case and load out as previously suggested if they will chamber. I think the 122gr Flat Nocse works best at about 1.14 and the 125gr Conical at about 1.16. If they won't go in I suggest you can get the throat taken out a little to suit this load length. Talk to Ray Pulver and see if he can help.

[Hi-Power Jack]

maybe 4-5 inches at 25 yards.... out of 9 shots....3 or 4 will be sub 2" but then there are always a few that are a bit more scattered...and yeh i made sure the same powder weight and oal etc...although there are likely some variations in bullet weight but they should be minimal.

Seems to me it's most likely you or the gun, or your reloads:

1. can you shoot 2-3 inch groups at 25 yards with another pistol?

2. if you can, and it's only this one gun - will the gun shoot 2-3 inch

groups at 25 yards with any other ammo?

3. If it's not you or the gun, I'd guess it's the crimp or the belling

- either not enough belling, or too much crimp.

Can you pull a bullet out of a loaded round and see if it's badly

nicked up? (that would be not enough belling or too much crimp).

Good luck.

[Boats]

Macca,

It's difficult to evaluate the accuracy of any pistol hand held. You can tell whats real bad but to find out what loads perform really well it takes a mechanical rest like the Ransom. NRA years ago did a extensive test of 38 special wadcutters and concluded there was no way to tell one cast bullet load from another without taking the human equation out. I still have the article if you are interested in the methodology.

I would evaluate your best candidate load along side another pistol using factory quality ammo. You will probably find the STI and hand loads do just as well, and if so not a lot to be gained by further testing. Personally I evaluate loads the easy way, Use what match winning shooters are using.

By the way used to shoot with the Manly Smallbore Club in Sydney, great group of shooters.

Boats

[Macca]

Seems to me it's most likely you or the gun, or your reloads:

1. can you shoot 2-3 inch groups at 25 yards with another pistol?

2. if you can, and it's only this one gun - will the gun shoot 2-3 inch

groups at 25 yards with any other ammo?

3. If it's not you or the gun, I'd guess it's the crimp or the belling

- either not enough belling, or too much crimp.

Can you pull a bullet out of a loaded round and see if it's badly

nicked up? (that would be not enough belling or too much crimp).

Good luck.

1. yes, no doubts there

2. not from anything ive tried

3. i will check crimp

thanks

[Hi-Power Jack]

Seems to me it's most likely you or the gun, or your reloads:

will the gun shoot 2-3 inch

groups at 25 yards with any other ammo?

Good luck.

not from anything ive tried

I think you may have hit on the problem - the gun itself is

not inherently accurate, IMHO. If you can't find any load

(factory or otherwise) that is accurate in your gun, it's

the gun. Seems to me that it is not uncommon for factory

mass produced pistols to shoot 4-5" groups at 25 yards, and

that is the best accuracy they're capable of - One trick

might be (very cautiously due to potential overpressure)

wouold be to try slightly oversized lead bullets - .357 in a

9mm or .38 super, as an example) -- I always meant to

try that, but never did, myself.

One other potential problem I've had is that the sights they

put on factory guns anymore are too coarse - it is not easy

for me to group well with them because the front sight is too

wide - for me a narrower front sight is easier to shoot small

groups - and the new fiberoptic sights are even more difficult

for precision shooting, to me.

Good luck, Jack

[DougCarden]

Try a 122 FP bullet with 4.0gr of Titegroup. It shot around 3in at 50yds for me in a couple of guns. It would be a good place to start.

Good luck,

DougC

[Macca]

I think you may have hit on the problem - the gun itself is

not inherently accurate, IMHO. If you can't find any load

(factory or otherwise) that is accurate in your gun, it's

the gun. Seems to me that it is not uncommon for factory

mass produced pistols to shoot 4-5" groups at 25 yards, and

that is the best accuracy they're capable of - One trick

might be (very cautiously due to potential overpressure)

wouold be to try slightly oversized lead bullets - .357 in a

9mm or .38 super, as an example) -- I always meant to

try that, but never did, myself.

One other potential problem I've had is that the sights they

put on factory guns anymore are too coarse - it is not easy

for me to group well with them because the front sight is too

wide - for me a narrower front sight is easier to shoot small

groups - and the new fiberoptic sights are even more difficult

for precision shooting, to me.

Good luck, Jack

Thanks Jack,

I think the gun is likely capable of better than 4-5" though.... other owners of targetmasters have reported much better accuracy than that at 50 yrds, not 25 yards....the answer to larger bullets will be to slug the barrel and find out exactly the optimum sizing for projectiles....which I will be doing in the coming weeks as soon as I get my hands on some soft lead.

The sights on this gun are very crisp, aristocrat make excellent sight blades, and its every bit as good as the sights on the guns i have for ISSF matches.

[Macca]

Ok....found some time to measure the chamber of my gun.....1.172-3 is touching.....so I've loaded some tests rounds out of the best performing combinations of powder/projectile to 1.165

They seem to feed fine in mags etc, and action cycles manually with that length no problem.

I also went back and measured the previous loadings...they were 1.014, not 1.14! ...i must have read my calipers wrong....cause thats just too short....so im not surprised they were a bit on the dodgey side (very unlike me).

Crimp is definitely set to minimal too.

I expect these may perform quite a bit better.

Edited November 7, 2009 by Macca

[Macca]

ok...despite being a very fussy gun...I've found 135grain rn nose hard cast lead projectile with 5 grains of power pistol and a federal small pistol primer at 1.165" OAL gets the job done.

strangely, with the 124 grain rn...win231 4.0 grains seems to do the job (not power pistol with that projectile)

Unique and bullseye seemed to be appalling in the end especially at 50 yards no matter the combo i tried....in fact unique performed poorly in every load I tried...so I'll definitely steer clear of it for 9mm.

4.5 grains of wst with a 124 rn also worked quite well....but of the lot the first load was the winner hands down.

Edited November 13, 2009 by Macca

[Hi-Power Jack]

ok...despite being a very fussy gun...I've found 135grain rn nose hard cast lead projectile with 5 grains of power pistol and a federal small pistol primer at 1.165" OAL gets the job done.

was the winner hands down.

How large were your 50 yard groups with

the 135 gr rn & 5 gr PP?

Jack

[Macca]

ok...despite being a very fussy gun...I've found 135grain rn nose hard cast lead projectile with 5 grains of power pistol and a federal small pistol primer at 1.165" OAL gets the job done.

was the winner hands down.

How large were your 50 yard groups with

the 135 gr rn & 5 gr PP?

Jack

varied 2-3 inches sometimes a little more but...for 50 its good.... off the bench a couple were well within the x-count

Edited November 13, 2009 by Macca

[Jesse Tischauser]

Check your chamber throat depth and load just short of that for the best accuracy. Also minimal crimp.

How do you determine your chamber throat depth? I have a G34 with a stock barrel and a lone wolf barrel for lead bullets.

[DougCarden]

Macca, Congrats on finding the right load. My only suggestion would be to try a Federal match gold medal primer with the load and measure groups......It shrunk my groups at 50 and dialed in the load for me.

Just something to think about!

DougC

[ap38]

I found that a Sierra 115 grain with 4.2 Titegroup was most accurate. Rainer 115 JHP was a close second. I got one three shot group from prone @ 50 yards at 1.5 inches.

As always, it depends on what your gun likes. Quality components are always good starting points.

ap

[rhyrlik]

Check your chamber throat depth and load just short of that for the best accuracy. Also minimal crimp.

How do you determine your chamber throat depth? I have a G34 with a stock barrel and a lone wolf barrel for lead bullets.

You remove the barrel, seat a bullet long, try to chamber it, and seat a littme deeper until the casehead is flush with the barrel hood. That is your max OAL.