PistolPete Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I shoot local steel and bowling pin matches every week at my local range. I really enjoy going but one thing about it bothers me. There are a few guys that bring 4 guns with them. (2 open guns and 2 stock guns) I can see competing in stock and open class with 1 gun each. (as I often do) However, these guys bring 4 guns and are able to compete with 2 guns in stock and 2 guns in open. I think this is rediculous. Not only does it give them a bigger advantage but it makes waiting around to shoot that much longer. I'm not one to bitch but I just don't agree with this. So, does this mean I can bring my entire safe down and shoot 20 times? I want them to get some kind of structure stating you can only shoot 1 gun in each division. How can I go about this without offending anyone and looking like I'm bitching? I just don't think it is right. What are your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twix Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I don't have an answer to your question, but as one who hates to stand around and wait you are definitely IPSC material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistolPete Posted November 19, 2003 Author Share Posted November 19, 2003 It's not the waiting around that bothers me as I always help between shooting, BUT, waiting around for the same guy to shoot 4 times is rediculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stratochief Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 So are they paying a match fee for EACH pistol? If they are, I don't see anything wrong with that at all. As long as their paying to shoot each gun, what's the difference between that and having 4 extra people at the match? If you can divide into 2 squads, you can make their squad a couple people short so you can shoot and get done a bit faster, rather than sitting around so much watching the same folks shooting over and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 4 guns is ridiculous. 2 is ok with me as long as those that are doing that are really quick and help out more than their fair share. 4 would piss me off also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistolPete Posted November 19, 2003 Author Share Posted November 19, 2003 I'm glad that I'm not the only one that this would bother. I just think it is rediculous. Yes, they are paying for the extra runs. ($5.00 per gun) but I just feel that if you are shooting open then you need to pick a gun for that division and same for stock. Since they are two "seperate" divisions that is fine. When I was competing in Martial Arts you couldn't compete multiple times in the same division. It just wouldn't be fair. That give you twice the chance of winning. So if you mess up one run it is no big deal. I just don't think it is fair. I too could shoot 4 guns but again I don't think it would be fair to everyone else. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 All four at once? And there are two guys doing that? Boo-hissssss-booooo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 PP, here in Italy it is common and accepted practice, even at club level matches, to strictly adhere to rule 6.2.3 Subject to the prior approval of the Match Director, a competitor may enter a competition in more than one Division. However, the competitor may compete for match score in only one Division and that shall be the first attempt in all cases. Match scores shall be accepted for recognition only for the initial completion. Any subsequent attempts in another Division shall not count for match recognition. This way a competitor can enter the match in various divisions, but only the first attempt will count for score and match recognition. If they wish to pay a second or even third match fee for the fun of shooting a different firearm, provided they get the MD approval, they are welcome to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 As long as they have one in each hand I dont' have a problem with it Besides, I'm sure the extra $ is good for the club, but they should only get scored for 1 gun in each class. I regularly shoot two gun in different classes, my fancy rig and a rig that looks like any average joe. I do this so people can't claim it is the gear that make the shooter, and they see that you can spend little $ and shoot fast too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Shooting two guns, in different divisions, Stock vs. Open, is fine.... but shooting twice in each division is just plain cheating. You're basically paying for a practice run, and evryone knows that there will be an advantage on the second run (this is STEEL, not IPSC). Actually, now that I think about it, shooting Stock and Open is kinda getting an advantage as well, for which ever Division you shoot second. Just pick a division and shoot it! Once! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 I agree with shooter40 on this but if you are going to shoot more than one gun go to the back of the line when you switch and let everyone else play. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 We do reshoots (in USPSA and Steel) on a regular basis. The first time thru is with one gun only. And, only the first run counts for match score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistolPete Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 What I bothered me on Monday night was he worked his way up and into the finals. I went against him in the semi-finals and he beat me. No problem he shot better than I did. But since he also won the other semi-final he had to compete against himself. (we were shooting man against man) So he managed to win both 1st and 2nd in both open and stock divisions. And, they only give prize money out to the top two in Man against man so he got ALL of the money. it's great that he's a great shooter and I love the competition but I just don't think this is fair at all. so he won 1st place and 2nd place in open and 1st place and 2nd place is stock. I totally disagree with this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Oh for crying outloud, he won both places in the same division by shooting twice? That's just plain wrong on so many levels. What's going on with the rest of the club members? Are they raising hell over this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistolPete Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 No, I think I was the only one pissed off!!! Not because I didn't win but because he won everything. I've beaten him before but that isn't the point. I could bring my entire safe down to the range and compete a lot and can almost guarantee I'll win something. LOL I just don't think that would be fair and if I won it wouldn't be the same. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 What I bothered me on Monday night was he worked his way up and into the finals. I went against him in the semi-finals and he beat me. No problem he shot better than I did. But since he also won the other semi-final he had to compete against himself. (we were shooting man against man) So he managed to win both 1st and 2nd in both open and stock divisions. And, they only give prize money out to the top two in Man against man so he got ALL of the money. it's great that he's a great shooter and I love the competition but I just don't think this is fair at all.so he won 1st place and 2nd place in open and 1st place and 2nd place is stock. I totally disagree with this... Well, I hate to be the odd man out here, but I disagree. The best shooter should win. And if he's the best shooter with two different types of gun, he should win twice. Excellence rises to the top, the rest shall fall by the wayside. This is unfair how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 The best shooter should win. And if he's the best shooter with two different types of gun, he should win twice. Duane, the whole point is not in having a competitor winning both Open and Standard Division (he might be damn good at both and win both, even if I feel he had a slight advantage on the second run), but having the same competitor being scored and classified twice in the same division, thus ending up in 1st and 2nd place of the same division. This is, IMO, just plain wrong. If you are the best shot around, you'll eventually end up in 1st place and get the 1st prize: you have competed against other competitors and demonstrated your skills. But if you can enter the match (for score and prizes in the same division) as many times as you like, you are competing against the same people several times in the same match. It is simply unfair. Moreover, should this habit gain ground, there will probably be 1-man matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistolPete Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 I just don't think it is right. When I was competing nationally in Martial Arts I couldn't enter the same division multiple times. I could enter once and that was it. That is only fair. Yes, you would be paying to enter twice but you don't see Tiger Woods entering a golf torn. twice. He only gets one chance and if he blows it too bad. Same with any other sport. So why should the exception be here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 My mistake. I thought the guy was entering in different divisions and winning both. I agree that entering twice in the same division is lame - and illegal, one would think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistolPete Posted November 20, 2003 Author Share Posted November 20, 2003 I'm all for shooting in both divisions. I think that is absolutely fair. So long as you compete with one gun in each division. That is usually what I do. I don't see anything wrong with that because they are two "seperate" divisions. But, competing twice within "one" division is rediculous. I want to say something but I don't want to look bad by doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Let me guess..... he either runs the club, or is real good friends with those that do.... and complaining would make you odd man out? I'd still ask how its legal that you can enter the same division more than once.... if he's the best shooter, how is anyone else supposed to ever win a prize if he wins 1-2 (hey why he's at it, why not make it 3? ) ? Is the match for cash? If so, theres the motivation - and its not fair, even if he does pay 2 entry fees per division, he's still much more likely to win a prize based on his skill, and now two of them. Hell, even if he was only allowed to actually win one prize regardless of number of entries, he's still doubled his chance to win something. Definitely bring it up..... I bet you aren't the only one who feels this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bulm5 Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 I remembered shooting an IDPA match a couple of years ago, not only it was a shotgun start but they allowed people to shoot different divisions at the same time, Grrrrr... I had to go home as it was frustrating waiting for my turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistolPete Posted November 25, 2003 Author Share Posted November 25, 2003 UPDATE: Well I went again tonight for a bowling pin match. Needless to say they showed up again and with 4 guns again. I asked some shooters what type of limit there was on how many guns you could shoot in a division. Some people said "as many as you bring and pay for." A few others seemed pretty pissed about the whole concept. One person was really upset about it and mentioned something to the people running the match. They just snarled at him and told him to mind his own business. The problem is like tonight where I shot less than 50 rounds yet I was at the range for 4 hours. So I shot for a total of 21 seconds (6 tables) yet had to wait around for 240 minutes. Just doesn't seem worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 Tell them you won't be returning and let them know why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limitless13 Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 As a newer shooter to the IPSC scene, I would be absolutely livid. I believe it is unfair on many levels. Most of which have been mentioned. He can shoot twice in one division, ok, score twice, no. He can also win both prizes? WTH is that? He paid for both, who cares? That's like some selfish bully on a playground. I'm going to do this as much as I want and I don't care what anyone else thinks. I wouldn't doubt there will be a drop in attendence at your club. Just my .02. KS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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