SmittyFL Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Ok, here is something I don't think has been discussed. I enjoy shooting different guns, but I also am very competitive and want to win everything. So when I go to a big match I'm inclined to shoot open because that is the "fastest way around the track", and at your average "big" match, the best shooters tend to be in open class. If I want to shoot Limited at a given match, I'm looking for a way to guage my performance against the best. I know I could look at classifers (mine and others) to figure a percentage, but classifers don't reflect stages at matches. So my question is this; has anyone figured a percentage difference between open and limited performance. In other words if you shot the same match in Open and Limited, against yourself, what would the score difference be. I imagine I could set up stages and figure this out for myself, and I may someday, but I thought I would ask first. My quess (total guess) would be about 15%, but I don't really know.....Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 15% is about my guess also, sometimes 10% if the targets are close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 This has been covered before. As I recall, the hot shot GM shooters who shoot both platforms figure about 8 per cent difference but I am not sure. Frankly, I disagree that Open is where the best competition is found at a "big" match. I guess GM and M class shooters in other divisions aren't as competitive within their division as Open shooters are within Open? Explain that one will ya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Smitty, I guess the answer depends on how familiar and competant you are with each style of gun. I've shot nothing but Standard or Production for the last 7 years, so I doubt the difference would be as low as 15% for me because, as you know, shooting a scoped gun is a whole different box 'n' dice to shooting iron sights. I don't recall if the USPSA Open Nationals and Limited Nationals used the same courses of fire but, if they did, you could compare the results of the GMs at both those matches. Of course that's not very scientific, but it will give you an idea of the spread at the top of the food chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 If you want to compare how you did, just compare you hit factors from each stage to the top dogs in the other divisions. Simple! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 If you take out the stages where the Big Stick mags come into play by reducing a reload, I don't thing there is a difference of more than 8 or 9% if you compare shooters of the same ability at the GM level, maybe less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted November 18, 2003 Author Share Posted November 18, 2003 Interesting.....I would have thought it would be more than that. Vince has a good point, does anyonw know if the stages for the O & L Nat's were the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 The Open and Limited stages were NOT the same at the 2003 USPSA Nationals. Arnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 I'm not sure you can compare your score shooting one division with another shooter in another division. Tactics are different , skills too. The dot doesn't necessary means you'll shoot faster, remember Barnhart shoooting one national with iron sighted open gun and placing fourth ! I believe that competition is harder at high level in open, more shooters in small percentages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 The 8 per cent number sticks in my mind vividly, but I can't find the thread. I am sure the per centage was based on an unscientific comparison of GM shooters in both divisions (like Todd Jarret) shooting the same course of fire with both platforms. I am still hung up on the idea that Open division is more competitive than the other divisions. I can't believe for a second that it would be easier to be Limited National Champion than to be Open National Champion. Are all Open shooters that arrogant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmercury2 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 ron whats it got to do with arrogance? is this an emotional issue? or skills and ability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Realistically, there are too many variables to make a scientific determination of how much harder one division is than the others. Suffice it to say, the HF is usually higher in Open than Limited, but by how much, I don't know. Maybe take a look at all the classifiers shot over a years time and compare all the same classification shooters for two divisions and see what you find, but the classifiers are so skewed it would be hard to really have lots of confidence in those numbers, at least for me. I am like Ron, I don't think it would be appreciatively easier to be National Champ in Limited vs Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 The best thing to do would be to compare the 2002 Race Gun Nationals results.... by the top ten hit factors of each stage in each division. I think the 2003 L and O nat matches were close enough that a general comparison would be valid. I might be partly responsible for the 8% meme. I thought I read or heard that from Matt Burkett somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted November 18, 2003 Author Share Posted November 18, 2003 Ron, I'm not saying it is easier to win in Limited than Open, but shooting an Open gun is going to give you a higher hit factor on just about any stage at a match. So if you want to be the "best / fastest / HOA" whatever you want to call it, then shooting Open is the way to go. I think that is why the "better / top dog" shooters tend to shoot open at most matches. I know the different divisions are in effect different matches within the match. But everybody wants to know who the HOA was........who shot the match with the best score regardless of what tool they used. Which leads back to my orginal post.....I like shooting Open and I like shooting Limited, heck I love shooting revolver, but I know I'm not going to win the match shooting rev or limited. (or open for that matter) I was just looking for a way to tell how your performance "would have been" if you shot the fastest tool (open gun). In other words, if you shot limited at a match, you could look at the match results and figure you would have shot 8 or 10% better score if you shot open. You could then figure where you "would have" finished if you used your drag car instead of your nascar........or whatever. Follow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Smitty, I think that the match has a great deal to do with the advantage to shooting Open. I have been to matches at the Antelope club where there seemed to be practically no advantage and then gone to Brooksville and had no idea how people were supposed to even shoot 30yd square plates with a limited/Production gun. I believe that Sunday might have been very even if some of the shots had not been so far away. The courses were all basically 8 round neutral and fair to everyone except for the masochist with the revolver (oops ... that wasn't you ... was it ). Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 Smitty: I am with you and I agree. Open is the fastest and most intense division. In fact, I would rather shoot Open than any other division and I have played very hard in each division. My remarks about arrogance are directed at those Open shooters who honestly believe their group is just a little bit better than everyone else. You know the guys, the ones who say Limited shooters are just failed open shooters, etc. And yes, it's an emotional issue because I despise the condenscending attitude of the high zoot shooters who scoff at Production and Revolver shooters. FWIW, there are only a handful of Open shooters in my entire state so the real competition here is found in Limited Division. I'll shut up and go away now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redmercury2 Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 RON, dont shut up and dont go away ,your ideas and opinions are as valuable as mine and everyones,. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted November 18, 2003 Share Posted November 18, 2003 ...Open shooters who honestly believe their group is just a little bit better than everyone else. You know the guys, the ones who say Limited shooters are just failed open shooters, etc. I thought open was for people too old to see the front sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 The best thing to do would be to compare the 2002 Race Gun Nationals results.... by the top ten hit factors of each stage in each division. OK, I just did that. On average, it's 11.5%. (But, I only used the top HF, not the top 10.) The largest difference was Stage 1 "Jackalope's Revenge" at a whopping 25%. If I remember there were distant partials (20 yds?) and prone steel (40 yds?). What's interesting is the stage with the least difference. It was stage 3 "5 to 50 Standards". Very interesting. I would have guessed 8-10%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 Storm: I compared the hit factors for the first five stages for the 10th place finish in each division. I was suprised at the results. The difference ran between 36% and 2.5%. At 10th place the difference on stage 4 was only 8% and stage 5 was 2.5%. Obviously we need a much bigger sample, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 One little problem with the 02 RGN L vs. O comparison... The O division competition was much deeper at that match compared to L. Stage 1 there had those loooonnng popper shots, and paper with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 One little problem with the 02 RGN L vs. O comparison... The O division competition was much deeper at that match compared to L. Yeah, that's why I only compared HHF rather than top 10 HF's. There were still plenty of good Limited shooters there. So, I think the numbers are still relevant. Kind of like an educated guess. Often times the HHF's at a Nationals are not set by the match winner. There are a lot of folks that end up putting together a "perfect" stage at the Nationals. They just don't do it for the whole match. I kind of think of a nationals stage win along the same lines as BE's LOHF (Limit of Human Function). If each stage win is truly an LOHF run, then the HHF comparison's would be accurate. It's just that it's the LOHF of the shooting populace rather than an individual. Who knows? Of course, another way to look at is, if Limited field wasn't as deep, that 11.5% figure is probably high. Maybe it really is closer to my original guess of 8-10%. Again, who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian38 Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 I shot the Open nationals and a friend went over for the limited nationals ... the courses of fire where not the same ... The open stages had more white (no shoots) and farther shots. I don't believe they are comparable at least for a percentage... I do look at scores and I have noticed that the percentage between shooters is much closer in open class ... I don't know If I would consider this more competitive or not but if you drop 1% in open your not going to win the nationals and in limited the top shooter is usually multiple percentage points ahead ... larger spreads ... All this equates to is that If your not #1 your going to have to work harder to beat the percentage in limited and in open you better not drop any! I think if your still trying to improve Open is the way ... but after you become a competent shooter I don't think the difference is substantial enough to matter except at longer distances and the fact that open is easier to shoot... That may account for the difference ... my transition times are relative to the distance I'm shooting with limited ... but in open my transitions are almost the same at any distance. Its all relative ... Slow, fast, open and limited. Perception is perhaps the real problem ... limited is slower? My Glock was always SLOW .....but then I realized it's NOT... It was just ME Holding MYSELF BACK because I "believed" it was! WHY SHOULD LIMITED BE SLOWER? I normally shoot OPEN and wouldn't mind if we keep you guys doubting your selves forever ... but maybe your holding yourselves back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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