Another steel question

[Fireant]

OK, so 4.1 list the type of targets that can be used and 4.1.4 Targets used in a course of fire may be partially or wholly hidden through the use of hard or soft cover:

4.1.4.1 Cover provided to hide all or a portion of a target will be considered

hard cover. When possible hard cover should not be simulated

but constructed using impenetrable materials (see Rule

2.1.3). Whole paper targets must not be used solely as hard

cover.

Then appendix B defines the target presentation. Paper targets must have 25% of the “A” zone showing or the entire upper A/B zone, but no mention of how much of a steel target has to show. So my question is how much of a plate must be showing? All? 25%?

Lets say that a Texas star has 2 hardcover poppers to block the left and right plate, giving you two top plates and the bottom plate at rest. The left plate has nothing exposed and the right plate has a sliver showing. Then lets say you shoot the two top plates and the bottom bang, bang, bang, and the star just sits there you are shooting through a port with fault lines defining a shooting area so you cannot move to another shot to see more of the plate. What’s the call? REF, bad stage and throw it out, shooter is out of luck, etc?

Edited September 20, 2009 by Fireant

[Chuck Anderson]

This happened a couple times at the Open/Production. They called it REF and granted a reshoot. There were some shooters that kept banging away and managed to get the star to move enough that it was visible enough to shoot. They did not get reshoots.

[Fireant]

That's my take on it also, but we had a lively discussion about this today.

[Nik Habicht]

What’s the call? REF, bad stage and throw it out, shooter is out of luck, etc?

Bad Stage design.....

How hard would it have been to leave the presentation alone, but add activation of the Star? Whether by pull rope, shooting a popper, knocking a popper over with a hand (at the start position, on the draw, or later on in stage), opening a door or port?

[colt]

I set that up at my local club last week with no problems , The star never stopped moving and there was aways a plate on the bottom.

I thought it was a neat idea when I seen stage design on it. If the star doesn't move I could see how that would be a problem.

There some video on youtube of it at warsawuspsa

Brent

[BritinUSA]

It was a bad stage. The plate at the bottom was not always in the same place at the start. Some people on my squad hit it and it started to move. When I shot the bottom plate the star did not move.

[colt]

After watching the video from my local match I see I was lucky that that didn't happen at my match .

Its not the frist stage I have tried that look cool on paper and then didn't work so well .

Brent

[Fireant]

Is there a rule other than REF that can be cited for this? Like how much of a plate/popper/whatever must be showing. If the star was like most stars it would be fine, but there are some brands that are so slow you can shoot the top two and the bottom and the thing just sits there. At the match in question it was ruled tough for you( the shooter) 2 mikes. along with the time you waited to see if it would move, then finish with the last shooting position.

[Chuck Anderson]

They did change this stage for the second match by adding a pull bar, sliding weight and an activator box. Yank the bar and the star started moving.

[Joe4d]

Texas stars are alot of fun, but so are other things, they should not be used in level 2 + USPSA matches, I saw them at Nationals not scored correctly, (Multi plates fall with one shot) but scored as hit, and VA/MD. Hit but not fall, shooter had to keep shooting, both were REF and should have been stopped and told to reshoot. Texas stars will either back up the heck out of a match with all the reshoots, or not be scored IAW the rule book.

[Flexmoney]

Texas stars will either back up the heck out of a match with all the reshoots, or not be scored IAW the rule book.

Depending on the star, I think you are right.

[Nik Habicht]

You need the original star; you need to be able to set it consistently -- which typically involves marking one of the arms, as well as marking where the barge stick goes that ultimately activates the star.....

It's not hard --- but it does take some dedication....

[hf219]

After watching 400+ shooters run thru the stage, I can say that the correct order to engage (CLOCK POSITION) was 6, 11, 9, then depending on how fast you are either 3 and finish at 6 or if your a little slow finish at 5 and 5. If you were really fast and shot 6,2 then 11 well you stopped the plate rack and left the two last plates behind hard cover and well as per my discussion with Ron Avery, I think this clip says it all. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DGFuHC75aY...feature=related

If there is any queries needed further on this pm me, thanks, H!

[hf219]

A big thanks goes out to several squads who set GM classifier times on resetting the star, Craig Ousten was setting the steel at about a 98% and Kirk McWilliams Squad was at about a 95%. Craig earned extra points for his squad by sprinting in a kilt from behind the fault lines to the star. It was rather funny seeing Craig's squad mates not wanting to pick up the plates off the ground! LOL! They were a little leary I think Craig. Congrats goes to there squads for Enthusiastic sporstmanship and laughter. Thanks Craig and Kirk, H!

[hf219]

Is there a rule other than REF that can be cited for this? Like how much of a plate/popper/whatever must be showing. If the star was like most stars it would be fine, but there are some brands that are so slow you can shoot the top two and the bottom and the thing just sits there. At the match in question it was ruled tough for you( the shooter) 2 mikes. along with the time you waited to see if it would move, then finish with the last shooting position.

Theres no rule on how much of any steel plate must be presented in order to not be called a disappearing target. A good question and answer did come about with one shooter. IF you have to leave the upper A in its entirity, it would be a good start as to how much of a piece of steel would need to be left in order for some one to engage and maybe hit. I say this as far as a future rules ammendment. This would be a good place to start and or possibley add that falling plates are not allowed a level II or III matches for obvious reason as we learned this past nationals. Discussions went further on with this same shooter, the reply was something like "Im shooting a production gun, im lucky if I get a 4" group out of this!" Well I agree with the generalization of what was being asked of shooters. H!

[Fireant]

The stage I'm talking about was from the nationals, but it was recreated for a local match. I have been told by many that reshoots were issued for the plates stopping behind the hardcover. Somene wanted to call the plates dissapearing, but that does not work either. Everyone would get 2 dissapearing plates, so a reshoot would be required from everyone that had already shot. I really hate being told that it is only a level 1 match so who cares? Well, I do. I expect my level 1 matches to prepare me for level 2 and above matches. If you don't want to follow the USPSA rules, then don't advertise your match as a USPSA event. I can then decide if I want to go or not. If I go I know ahead of time I can not argue rules because they don't exist. BUT if you advertise a USPSA match let's use that book for something other than leveling out your dinning room table.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Fireant

[kend]

I expect my level 1 matches to prepare me for level 2 and above matches. If you don't want to follow the USPSA rules, then don't advertise your match as a USPSA event. I can then decide if I want to go or not. If I go I know ahead of time I can not argue rules because they don't exist. BUT if you advertise a USPSA match let's use that book for something other than leveling out your dining room table.

[JThompson]

Is there a rule other than REF that can be cited for this? Like how much of a plate/popper/whatever must be showing. If the star was like most stars it would be fine, but there are some brands that are so slow you can shoot the top two and the bottom and the thing just sits there. At the match in question it was ruled tough for you( the shooter) 2 mikes. along with the time you waited to see if it would move, then finish with the last shooting position.

Theres no rule on how much of any steel plate must be presented in order to not be called a disappearing target. A good question and answer did come about with one shooter. IF you have to leave the upper A in its entirity, it would be a good start as to how much of a piece of steel would need to be left in order for some one to engage and maybe hit. I say this as far as a future rules ammendment. This would be a good place to start and or possibley add that falling plates are not allowed a level II or III matches for obvious reason as we learned this past nationals. Discussions went further on with this same shooter, the reply was something like "Im shooting a production gun, im lucky if I get a 4" group out of this!" Well I agree with the generalization of what was being asked of shooters. H!

WE had a rather large thread on how much steel should be visible. I think I emailed John on this one and he said 25% of the calibration area must remain visible. I know I know, it's not in the book................

[JThompson]

They did change this stage for the second match by adding a pull bar, sliding weight and an activator box. Yank the bar and the star started moving.

It's very hard to get a consistent star. It can be done, but the fact is unless the same guy sets it or the RO makes sure every time you are going to get different presentations. It's the nature of the beast.

JT

[Fireant]

Is there a rule other than REF that can be cited for this? Like how much of a plate/popper/whatever must be showing. If the star was like most stars it would be fine, but there are some brands that are so slow you can shoot the top two and the bottom and the thing just sits there. At the match in question it was ruled tough for you( the shooter) 2 mikes. along with the time you waited to see if it would move, then finish with the last shooting position.

Theres no rule on how much of any steel plate must be presented in order to not be called a disappearing target. A good question and answer did come about with one shooter. IF you have to leave the upper A in its entirity, it would be a good start as to how much of a piece of steel would need to be left in order for some one to engage and maybe hit. I say this as far as a future rules ammendment. This would be a good place to start and or possibley add that falling plates are not allowed a level II or III matches for obvious reason as we learned this past nationals. Discussions went further on with this same shooter, the reply was something like "Im shooting a production gun, im lucky if I get a 4" group out of this!" Well I agree with the generalization of what was being asked of shooters. H!

WE had a rather large thread on how much steel should be visible. I think I emailed John on this one and he said 25% of the calibration area must remain visible. I know I know, it's not in the book................

You are right that Amidon may have said that, but I wonder how much he really thought about it? Let's look at the targets, a metric target has to have 25% OR the entire upper A/B showing. That measures out to about a 6in by 6 in plate. That happens to be the smallest square plate allowed. That means you could have a 3 in by 3 in plate showing. I'm thinking that the whole reason for having minimum sizes for the steel is so we do not have a teeny tiny scrap of steel out there for a target. If it is spelled out what the minimum size for a piece of paper is( 25 % or the entire upper A/B zone) I would think that they want you to have the whole calibration zone showing( remember we do not calibrate plates, so there is no calibration zone). If you have a popper with only 25% showing, how can you accurately calibrate it?

Edited September 21, 2009 by Fireant

[Nemo]

Last Saturday's recreation of Stage 7 of the O-P nationals was not very good stage design. I like shooting Texas stars just as much as the next guy, but there are some things we shouldn't do with that inconsistent type of target.

Last Saturday it was my call not to declare it REF. The star did what it was supposed to do: move. Slowly but it did move. For the two shooters (of a squad of 20) who managed to make the 5 and 7 o'clock plates stop behind the hardcover, the 5 plate still had a visible portion. 25% ? Maybe, maybe more, maybe less... If that plate would've been knocked down the other would've become available. It was not a visceral decision; it was based on my limited knowledge and a quick look at the rulebook that didn't give any clear guidance.

I didn't design this stage for Nats, nor set it up last Saturday at SAPSA. One thing I learned from RO'ing it was that if I were to setup something like this I would NOT used any hard cover. However, if hard cover was a necessity I would use small (US) hard cover poppers instead pepper poppers to cover less of the star's plate array, but still add somewhat of a difficulty to an already not-easy target.

There are folks that get up early to put together these local matches, Fireant being one of those folks, for which I'm always most grateful. I'm never early to a local match; therefore I'm content with whatever those who work provide for me to have fun. If I can provide constructive criticism I will, most of the time only if I'm asked for it unless there is a safety issue. So, to me it is sad to see folks that because a call didn't go the way they expected or envisioned it would go simply decide to "stamp" the match, the match organizers and those who worked to make it happen as people who don't know what they are doing.

Every single one of the local matches in my area at one point or another has taken "liberties" on the rulebook. Every single one of the folks that decide to contribute as RO's in these matches has made less-than-stellar calls. Maybe my call last Saturday on that stage was my less-than-stellar one that day but wasn't made to affect the scores of any single shooter, or to aggravate anyone.

[Fireant]

Nemo,

I didn't leave because I was mad about the call. If you recall it did not effect my score or run at all. I left for a combination of reasons that just happen to have the MD's call on this stage (which was not based on a rule, but rather on what he saw at nationals) included in those reasons. Any time one of my stages does not follow the rule book I work to fix it. This stage could and I sure did affect the outcome of the match. You could have shot the two plates at the 11 and 1 position and then shot the 6 o clock plate and never have had the other two plates give one exposure. That is REF, since the rule book doesn't say 25% has to be showing and there is no calibration zone on a plate the stage did not operate as desired. Maybe this can be something that gets included in a future rulebook. I decided months ago that I would not shoot a match or continue once the fun factor was gone. Saturday with the work I had waiting at home and the combination of events that morning killed the fun factor, so I left. Nothing more, nothing less. I never mentioned what match either, I was just looking for a rule clarification.

[RufDog]

Last Saturday's recreation of Stage 7 of the O-P nationals was not very good stage design. I like shooting Texas stars just as much as the next guy, but there are some things we shouldn't do with that inconsistent type of target.

Last Saturday it was my call not to declare it REF. The star did what it was supposed to do: move. Slowly but it did move. For the two shooters (of a squad of 20) who managed to make the 5 and 7 o'clock plates stop behind the hardcover, the 5 plate still had a visible portion. 25% ? Maybe, maybe more, maybe less... If that plate would've been knocked down the other would've become available. It was not a visceral decision; it was based on my limited knowledge and a quick look at the rulebook that didn't give any clear guidance.

I didn't design this stage for Nats, nor set it up last Saturday at SAPSA. One thing I learned from RO'ing it was that if I were to setup something like this I would NOT used any hard cover. However, if hard cover was a necessity I would use small (US) hard cover poppers instead pepper poppers to cover less of the star's plate array, but still add somewhat of a difficulty to an already not-easy target.

There are folks that get up early to put together these local matches, Fireant being one of those folks, for which I'm always most grateful. I'm never early to a local match; therefore I'm content with whatever those who work provide for me to have fun. If I can provide constructive criticism I will, most of the time only if I'm asked for it unless there is a safety issue. So, to me it is sad to see folks that because a call didn't go the way they expected or envisioned it would go simply decide to "stamp" the match, the match organizers and those who worked to make it happen as people who don't know what they are doing.

Every single one of the local matches in my area at one point or another has taken "liberties" on the rulebook. Every single one of the folks that decide to contribute as RO's in these matches has made less-than-stellar calls. Maybe my call last Saturday on that stage was my less-than-stellar one that day but wasn't made to affect the scores of any single shooter, or to aggravate anyone.

thats a very good post NEMO

[RickyH]

If I can provide constructive criticism I will, most of the time only if I'm asked for it unless there is a safety issue. So, to me it is sad to see folks that because a call didn't go the way they expected or envisioned it would go simply decide to "stamp" the match, the match organizers and those who worked to make it happen as people who don't know what they are doing.

I have been shooting USPSA for two years and I help setup three matches a month . I guess I'm one of the who don't know what there doing if those of you who know what you are doing we would love for you to come help.

Edited September 23, 2009 by RickyH

[kend]

I have been shooting USPSA for two years and I help setup three matches a month . I guess I'm one of the who don't know what there doing if those of you who know what you are doing we would love for you to come help.

Only 3?!! Geez, it sounds like you need more practice...what I think you should do is leave your house about 5:30 Saturday morning and drive the hour it takes to get here so you can get a little more practice setting up stages, we, I mean Roger, would try to learn you some of the finer points of stage design. I would love to help you but I'll be piled up in a Hampton Inn sleeping late (as compared to your getting up at 4:30 or 5:00 ) Saturday. MAN I wish I could help.......