2009 Open/Production Nationals Popper Issues

[Jadeslade]

Now that Nik has nicely separated this out I can say that it shouldn't matter if the popper is down-why should it matter if it is down or not to be calibrated? I know the rules say it has to be left standing, but that could be changed. If it takes 5 shots to hammer a popper down, it's not working right. We set it up after each shooter for the next shooter so what would be wrong to set it up for a calibration check? Would take about a minute. If it works, ok. If it doesn't -reshoot. I don't get the left standing part. DVC

Actually the rule makes perfect sense. If the popper has been knocked down it is assumed to NOT be in the same state as it would be if it was left standing. Therefore, the subsequent calibration is not valid anymore since the state of the popper has changed since it failed to fall after the first hit. Seems like you might be forgetting that poppers are supposed to be calibrated for power factor with a dedicated range gun and ammo and just because a popper fails to fall it is not neccessarily assumed to be out of calibration, the competitiors load could be at fault.

I think it is always best to hit steel once and if you know you got a good clean hit, leave it standing and move on to finish the stage. After the stage is complete, ask the RO for a calibration.

Yeah, the competitors load could be at fault, but I think Randi shoots Atlanta Arms Ammo, so I doubt it. Yes, I understand that. But as Xre pointed out, once it is hit even once, that can change the conformation/position of the popper, so it is not in the same state anyway. In ordinary circumstances I would agree with you, but when a good shooter hits a popper 8 times, witnessed by another good shooter, something is not right. So chrono the ammo if a reshoot is requested. Would you leave a popper standing that had another target behind it? Or would you hammer it down, keep going and hope for common sense? I think most of would hammer and keep going. So there should be an out for the RO and the MD to rectify the situation. What is the objection? Thanks.DVC

[Jadeslade]

Poppers are always more problematic than a straightforward hit on paper. Once an RO has to start making judgement calls on why multiple hits don't drop it, we've traded one problem for another. Ultimately, the decision is and should be in the shooter's hands. If you hit it solid in the calibration zone and you know your ammo is to spec, then move on and call for a calibration. If you're not sure, hit it again and then move on. To me, the present system may not seem perfect, but it's as fair as possible considering the variables that poppers can present.

Curtis

Yeah, cool. I shoot Production too. I really don't think the RO should be put on the spot. I think the popper behind is the issue, if you move on, it is a FTE. It should be unable to engage, not failure. That should be grounds for a reshoot. I am not saying the current rules are bad, but perhaps an addendum or interpretation based on target placement. Especially if all the other poppers in the stage fell. Kind of sticks out like a sore thumb. Now, I have seen shooters, maybe myself, take 8 shots at a popper and not hit it, so I don't want to go there. I think Randi is a better shooter than that and Julie said she saw it. I am not a witness. I am just saying it's a bummer for Randi, that should be rectifiable in the future. Isn't that how we learn? From situations that come up and all. Thanks.

[JThompson]

Look at it this way. If you reset it and it calibrated okay then fine. There is nothing saying that it wasn't bound some how when the shooter had to drive it, but that's tuff. On the other hand if it was just set to heavy then the shooter would be allowed to reshoot. I see no downside for the shooter and it WOULD give the shooter a better chance of getting a deserved reshoot. Are there times when this could get a shooter and undeserved reshoot??? I really don't see it. If it binds again, or is too heavy they get the reshoot, but if not they don't.

I think this is a rule of expediency more than anything else. I think the NROI was worried about people saying they shot a popper more than once, and perhaps they did. Now after the run the shooter says the popper was not calibrated and requests a calibration. This could slow a match down. If a shooter thought they might be able to get a reshoot for a heavy popper in the event they had a less than stellar run.... If you think about it, it's really the only reason I see for the way the rule is written.

As I was told when taking the RO class, "we aren't in the gotcha business," but in this case, it's seems to have worked out that way to prevent abuse.

JT

Edited September 14, 2009 by JThompson

[Joe4d]

She drilled it down and then signed her sheet. Jessie was the next shooter and we waited a LONG time for them to make adjustments to the popper before she shot.

Interesting that they knew something was wrong and corrected it without giving her the benefit. If something had broken or changed (that needed to be fixed before Jessie could shoot) the previous shooter should have been given the benefit, whether it is detailed in the book or not, it was an equipment malfunction.

This same situation came up at the Area 8, the stage had steel behind fences with ports, and alot of vision barriers, not seeing a target was a distinct possibility, two shooters were scored Mikes on a popper, earlier the RM had ruled on that stage that unless you knew for a fact that it wasnt engaged then they only got the Mike not a FTE, well shooter 3 swore he hit it and asked for calibration, and guess what , the target was broke and wouldnt have gone down if hit with a sledgehammer, So he gets a reshoot, now shooter 1 and2 start asking for the same reshoot, RM ruled that only shooter 3 reshoots cause he asked for calibration shooters 1 and 2 didnt.

[Nik Habicht]

Calibration Challenges

6. If, during a course of fire, a popper does not fall when hit, a competitor has three alternatives:

a. The popper is shot again until it falls. In this case, no further action is required and the course of fire is scored “as shot”.

b. The popper is left standing but the competitor does not challenge the calibration. In this case, no further action is required and the course of fire is scored “as shot”, with the subject popper scored as a miss.

c. The popper is left standing and the competitor challenges the calibration. In this case, the popper and the surrounding area on which it stands must not be touched or interfered with by any person. If a Match Official violates this rule, the competitor must reshoot the course of fire. If the competitor or any other person violates this rule, the popper will be scored as a miss and the rest of the course of fire will be scored “as shot”. If the popper falls for any non-interference reason (e.g. wind action), before it can be calibrated, Section 4.6 will apply and a reshoot must be ordered.

7. In the absence of any interference, or problem with a target mechanism, a calibration officer must conduct a calibration test of the subject popper (when required under 6c above), from as near as possible to the point from where the competitor shot the popper. The following will apply:

a. If the first shot by the calibration officer hits on or below the calibration zone and the popper falls, the popper is deemed to be properly calibrated, and it will be scored as a miss.

b. If the first shot fired by the calibration officer hits the popper anywhere on its frontal surface and the popper does not fall, the calibration test is deemed to have failed and the competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire, once the popper has been recalibrated.

c. If the first shot fired by the calibration officer hits above the calibration zone, the calibration test is deemed to have failed and the competitor must be ordered to reshoot the course of fire once the Popper has been recalibrated.

d. If the first shot fired by the calibration officer misses the popper altogether, another shot must be fired until one of 7a. 7b or 7c occurs.

Personally I think the rules are pretty well thought out --- the competitor has options, and there are enough specifics in the rules to hang an arbitration on if the calibration officer, the R.O. or the competitor makes a mistake. We're talking about an incident here where we've heard essentially one side of the issue --- the part that was observed by other competitors. We have not heard from the shooter or the match staff. We have not read the appeal to arbitration (were the correct arguments made?) or the decision (was the decision correct in light of the issues raised, the evidence/testimony gathered, the interpretation of the rules?).

Yet the first reaction is to blame the rules? To suggest we need a change? Seems a bit reactionary to me.....

[Joe4d]

delete

Edited September 15, 2009 by Joe4d

[JThompson]

This isn't the first time we have had a conversation about poppers. I love them as target's but there are more inherent problems with them then say a paper target.

JT

Edited September 14, 2009 by JThompson

[larry cazes]

Poppers are always more problematic than a straightforward hit on paper. Once an RO has to start making judgement calls on why multiple hits don't drop it, we've traded one problem for another. Ultimately, the decision is and should be in the shooter's hands. If you hit it solid in the calibration zone and you know your ammo is to spec, then move on and call for a calibration. If you're not sure, hit it again and then move on. To me, the present system may not seem perfect, but it's as fair as possible considering the variables that poppers can present.

Curtis

Yeah, cool. I shoot Production too. I really don't think the RO should be put on the spot. I think the popper behind is the issue, if you move on, it is a FTE. It should be unable to engage, not failure. That should be grounds for a reshoot. I am not saying the current rules are bad, but perhaps an addendum or interpretation based on target placement. Especially if all the other poppers in the stage fell. Kind of sticks out like a sore thumb. Now, I have seen shooters, maybe myself, take 8 shots at a popper and not hit it, so I don't want to go there. I think Randi is a better shooter than that and Julie said she saw it. I am not a witness. I am just saying it's a bummer for Randi, that should be rectifiable in the future. Isn't that how we learn? From situations that come up and all. Thanks.

Decisions are made based on written rules and the ROs implementation, not on whether another shooter or spectator on the stage "saw it". The current rules are good and do not need changing. So much has already been written here on this......

[Gary Stevens]

I had a discussion at Area 8 with a fellow (who can name himself if he wishes) about a modification to the calibration procedure. I found it interesting, but still haven't digested it enough to say yes or no.

Basically the first part would be exactly as it is now. Call for a calibration, inspect the popper, nothing apparently broken, perform calibration if it doesn't fall obviously a reshoot. Now comes the potentially new part. The popper is then reset and shot again from the same spot and if it falls you get the miss, if it does not fall a second time, it is a reshoot.

Obviously it will add a bit of time to the procedure, but I can live with that considering that these things can have an enormous impact on a shooters score.

Your thoughts?

Edited September 14, 2009 by Gary Stevens

[Alan Meek]

I had a discussion at Area 8 with a fellow (who can name himself if he wishes) about a modification to the calibration procedure. I found it interesting, but still haven't digested it enough to say yes or no.

Basically the first part would be exactly as it is now. Call for a calibration, inspect the popper, nothing apparently broken, perform calibration if it doesn't fall obviously a reshoot. Now comes the potentially new part. The popper is then reset and shot again from the same spot and if it falls you get the miss, if it does not fall a second time, it is a reshoot.

Obviously it will add a bit of time to the procedure, but I can live with that considering that these things can have an enormous impact on a shooters score.

Your thoughts?

That would be me!

[Singlestack]

I don't get your thought process Gary. What does it prove?

[Alan Meek]

If I may.

The current calibration process is to calibrate the popper as it stands, even after it has been struck and did not fall. Technically the popper may or may not be in the position it was set in before being struck. The strike, while not enough to knock the popper down may or may not have changed the "set". So when we calibrate the popper it may or may not be in the original set position.

This process would just add the reset of the popper to the calibration and calibrate it once without it having been struck. The popper would have to fall twice to be a miss.

Thoughts?

Alan

[JThompson]

I had a discussion at Area 8 with a fellow (who can name himself if he wishes) about a modification to the calibration procedure. I found it interesting, but still haven't digested it enough to say yes or no.

Basically the first part would be exactly as it is now. Call for a calibration, inspect the popper, nothing apparently broken, perform calibration if it doesn't fall obviously a reshoot. Now comes the potentially new part. The popper is then reset and shot again from the same spot and if it falls you get the miss, if it does not fall a second time, it is a reshoot.

Obviously it will add a bit of time to the procedure, but I can live with that considering that these things can have an enormous impact on a shooters score.

Your thoughts?

It's good to see you guys are willing to consider ideas to try and make the field more equal. This could help if a popper was partially pushed back from the shooters original engagement. It will not address the issue if a shooter must drive a popper down. In the example here there is really little choice when you think about how much could be lost. The only way I see to make that work out is to allow a popper, which has already been felled, to be reset and shot with calibrated ammo. I'm not advocating that this be done, but at times where the popper hides another target or is used as an activator, I think it merits some thought. A mike sucks if a shooter decided to move on and call for a calibration, but a say five mikes and 2 FTEs (say a popper controls two swingers or drop outs) This is a deficit that should be avoided at all cost, whether it takes a little extra time or not. I mean how many people can take the chance on that many points...? NO, you have to drive that sucker.... I don't see where there is a choice. Now the shooter has lost all that time driving this thing down because of the potential for disaster. There is no way that we should let that stand if we can figure a way around it. If we can setup a downed popper and take a calibration shot, is that to much to ask in the name of fairness?

Then there is the flip side to that as the potential for abuse and how to decide if a calibration is warranted. Again, I'm not advocating anything one way or another, just throwing it out there for discussion.

JT

[JThompson]

If I may.

The current calibration process is to calibrate the popper as it stands, even after it has been struck and did not fall. Technically the popper may or may not be in the position it was set in before being struck. The strike, while not enough to knock the popper down may or may not have changed the "set". So when we calibrate the popper it may or may not be in the original set position.

This process would just add the reset of the popper to the calibration and calibrate it once without it having been struck. The popper would have to fall twice to be a miss.

Thoughts?

Alan

At the very least Alan.... I think that this is a good idea. Once the popper has been struck it's now in an unknown state.

[Jadeslade]

Poppers are always more problematic than a straightforward hit on paper. Once an RO has to start making judgement calls on why multiple hits don't drop it, we've traded one problem for another. Ultimately, the decision is and should be in the shooter's hands. If you hit it solid in the calibration zone and you know your ammo is to spec, then move on and call for a calibration. If you're not sure, hit it again and then move on. To me, the present system may not seem perfect, but it's as fair as possible considering the variables that poppers can present.

Curtis

Yeah, cool. I shoot Production too. I really don't think the RO should be put on the spot. I think the popper behind is the issue, if you move on, it is a FTE. It should be unable to engage, not failure. That should be grounds for a reshoot. I am not saying the current rules are bad, but perhaps an addendum or interpretation based on target placement. Especially if all the other poppers in the stage fell. Kind of sticks out like a sore thumb. Now, I have seen shooters, maybe myself, take 8 shots at a popper and not hit it, so I don't want to go there. I think Randi is a better shooter than that and Julie said she saw it. I am not a witness. I am just saying it's a bummer for Randi, that should be rectifiable in the future. Isn't that how we learn? From situations that come up and all. Thanks.

Decisions are made based on written rules and the ROs implementation, not on whether another shooter or spectator on the stage "saw it". The current rules are good and do not need changing. So much has already been written here on this......

Larry, I respect your position and place, but after searching so much that has been written here....I stand by my opinion that steel f**** up a lot... because that is what has been written in this forum. Also, you said that perhaps the ammo is at fault. Hm? So I don't understand your flat out decision to stand pat. If that were the way all issues were handled, nothing would change, we would all still be shooting Colt 45's, using iron sights, and leather holsters. Things change. Also, what the the shooters see counts a lot-it counts in AD arbitrations, it counts in REF, and it just counts from a sporting sense. Is there some secret about this issue? Thanks. DVC.

[Nik Habicht]

I am just a shooter, but steel f**** up a lot, it's the nature of steel.

Mmmmm, no, not exactly. Steel can be a problem, but the problem's not inherent in the steel. Much like any other target it must be managed by the match staff. Some thought needs to be given to where it is placed, whether the surface it's placed on needs improving, (one area match I know of cut plywood bases for all of the poppers used to prevent the metal bases from digging into the soft range surface over the course of several days), its condition (both steel and mechanism), how it's reset, etc. All of these things can be properly managed by an experienced crew.

That said, I'm still thinking about Alan's proposal.....

[zhunter]

Being we are now talking about Steel and not the popper in question at nationals.....

I think in light of not just this thread's original situation, but poppers in general seem to have inherent flaws, and.....

1) should not be used to hide another target as this causes problems with potential FTE's

2) should not be used as activators, but rather a swinging target can be activated be the shooter grabbing or dislodging something to set the swinger/mover/drop turner in motion

3) Steel is supposed to be painted between shooters ( at majors ) and can be scored (like Steel Challenge) if hit, as this is about getting your hits (Power Factor is calculated at the Chrono stage)

This 3rd idea will speed up and rid of us the calibration procedure, rid us of nearly all of our range malfunctions, and in doing so speed everything up.

just my ideas, feel free to carry on

[Jake Di Vita]

I can't remember a Nationals where the poppers haven't been a significant issue in the consistency of the challenge to everyone.

I still believe poppers should follow the same rule as plates. If they are struck and don't fall, it's an automatic REF. I understand that the popper was intended to be set so only a load reaching minimum PF will knock it over - if that is the case, I'm not sure I understand why we need to chronograph as well. When we have an exact metric of PF (weight x speed) - there is no usefulness in using something so subjective that obviously causes a variety of issues.

The bottom line is under the current rules, someone always gets the shaft. Something needs to change.

[bill d]

I can't remember a Nationals where the poppers haven't been a significant issue in the consistency of the challenge to everyone.

I still believe poppers should follow the same rule as plates. If they are struck and don't fall, it's an automatic REF. I understand that the popper was intended to be set so only a load reaching minimum PF will knock it over - if that is the case, I'm not sure I understand why we need to chronograph as well. When we have an exact metric of PF (weight x speed) - there is no usefulness in using something so subjective that obviously causes a variety of issues.

The bottom line is under the current rules, someone always gets the shaft. Something needs to change.

+1000

[Nik Habicht]

I still believe poppers should follow the same rule as plates. If they are struck and don't fall, it's an automatic REF.

Does that include an edge hit? A hit just above the base? A hit that's solidly anywhere on the front surface? Only hits that land in or touch the circle? Are we ready to eliminate activating poppers from stage design? Are we willing to eliminate poppers/US poppers/Plates in a line, with each concealing the next?

I understand that the popper was intended to be set so only a load reaching minimum PF will knock it over - if that is the case, I'm not sure I understand why we need to chronograph as well. When we have an exact metric of PF (weight x speed) - there is no usefulness in using something so subjective that obviously causes a variety of issues.

So, everyone will be shooting minor --- since we can eliminate the chrono..... :devil:

The bottom line is under the current rules, someone always gets the shaft. Something needs to change.

I don't agree. I see a lot of poppers shot on a lot of stages every year without issue. At many of those matches, no one gets hosed by the steel. (2006 in Tulsa --- virtually every competitor had popper issues; but that was a forward falling design flaw --- and based on my experience at the 2003-6 Production Nationals an aberration....)

I'm liking Alan's proposal quite a bit....

[Nik Habicht]

Being we are now talking about Steel and not the popper in question at nationals.....

I think in light of not just this thread's original situation, but poppers in general seem to have inherent flaws, and.....

1) should not be used to hide another target as this causes problems with potential FTE's

2) should not be used as activators, but rather a swinging target can be activated be the shooter grabbing or dislodging something to set the swinger/mover/drop turner in motion

just my ideas, feel free to carry on

Designed and built many stages? You're willing to throw out a bit of diversity because sometimes there are set-up or steel condition problems? 'Cause the timing of popper activated movers is a shooting challenge......

[lugnut]

Ok- let's put the rules aside for one minute. Say the shooter's ammo passed chrono. There is just no way the a "functioning" popper wouldn't fall with 8 shots unless they ALL just nick'd the edges and/or were very low- which I highly doubt in this case (assuming it's accurate). We all know things can happen with poppers- whether something gets stuck in the bearing, etc.

I can also understand why the shooter in this case continued as other targets were behind this popper.

Why there is nothing that can be done after this fact is strange to me... there has to be something in the rules to accomodate for this even after the shooter signed the score sheet IMO. Someone even said it was calibrated/tweaked or fixed after??? As far as calibration... it's never perfect. The "state" of the popper will never be the same.... what may have prevented it from falling after 8 shots or 1 may not be there after.

Edited September 15, 2009 by lugnut

[zhunter]

Designed and built many stages? You're willing to throw out a bit of diversity because sometimes there are set-up or steel condition problems? 'Cause the timing of popper activated movers is a shooting challenge......

Nik

Diversity is fine, eliminating a weak link is more what I am getting at.

My #1 in my post would eliminate a huge potential problem, that being one failing piece of equipment not causing further issue and possible FTE's

I am NOT a believer in everyone shooting minor, but a hit is a hit, and the paint tells the story, it seems to work in Steel Challenge, and.... well being we now own/run SC, why not adapt something they do very well.

As for timing activated movers, well, grab a dowel or push it out of a position that activates a mover, what is wrong with that?

I just feel that we are ALL interested in everyone shooting the same stage, and up to this point, falling steel has certainly been the weak point in that fairness.

Edited September 15, 2009 by zhunter

[Nik Habicht]

Designed and built many stages? You're willing to throw out a bit of diversity because sometimes there are set-up or steel condition problems? 'Cause the timing of popper activated movers is a shooting challenge......

Nik

Diversity is fine, eliminating a weak link is more what I am getting at.

My #1 in my post would eliminate a huge potential problem, that being one failing piece of equipment not causing further issue and possible FTE's

I am NOT a believer in everyone shooting minor, but a hit is a hit, and the paint tells the story, it seems to work in Steel Challenge, and.... well being we now own/run SC, why not adapt something they do very well.

As for timing activated movers, well, grab a dowel or push it out of a position that activates a mover, what is wrong with that?

I just feel that we are ALL interested in everyone shooting the same stage, and up to this point, falling steel has certainly been the weak point in that fairness.

Maybe I just shoot in a strange place --- but around here, match staff approach stage design and construction and if needed rule interpretation, with the same zeal that they approach improving as a shooter.....

We have had issues with poppers as activators or concealment too --- but we've usually got those problems for the first or second shooter in the match. Set-up staff or the MD are generally on hand to observe the first and second shooter's attempt at the stage to ensure that if there's a problem, it gets fixed immediately......

I abhor attempts to limit creativity in stage design or in stage execution (on the shooter's part). I concede that I have a responsibility as a stage designer and builder to be prudent, to plan well, to execute that plan, and to learn from my mistakes......

USPSA isn't Steel Challenge. An edge hit on a paper target that doesn't break the perf doesn't count for score; an edge hit on a steel that doesn't take it down, shouldn't count either.

[slip knot]

Lugnut, what would you do with a shooter that shoots a 126 power factor

and the crono gun shoots a 129 pf ? The 126 may not take down steel,

but the 129 does. Would you give the 126 shooter a re-shoot ?

They both are minor....