Alfie Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Ladies Production, Squad 9 - Jessie is shooting very well - fast and clean. Randi had a bad break with a with a pepper popper (she hit 8 times and it was brutal to watch ) No reshoot given. She filed an arbitration and when I left the range they were still deliberating. Carrie and I have a couple misses and no-shoots at this point, but tomorrow is another day. Julie, What stage did she have the steel trouble with? I had some too on stage 12, three solid center hits and steel didn't fall. Luckily it didn't fall with the calibration pistol either. Alfie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99gski Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Ladies Production, Squad 9 - Jessie is shooting very well - fast and clean. Randi had a bad break with a with a pepper popper (she hit 8 times and it was brutal to watch ) No reshoot given. She filed an arbitration and when I left the range they were still deliberating. Carrie and I have a couple misses and no-shoots at this point, but tomorrow is another day. Julie, What stage did she have the steel trouble with? I had some too on stage 12, three solid center hits and steel didn't fall. Luckily it didn't fall with the calibration pistol either. Alfie It was Stage 11. The one with the mini poppers behind the big poppers. Julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Randi had a bad break with a with a pepper popper (she hit 8 times and it was brutal to watch ) No reshoot given. She filed an arbitration and when I left the range they were still deliberating. Carrie and I have a couple misses and no-shoots at this point, but tomorrow is another day. So, she beat it down, and then asked for a reshoot afterward? I can sympathize.... Its hard to leave it standing for a calibration check in the heat of shooting the stage. Did they calibrate the thing after her run? Just curious what her grounds for arbitration were (though I'm sure that'll show up on the NROI site after the match... or it should). Of course... I wish I was there so I'd have to opportunity to beat a popper down, so maybe I'm a little jealous? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99gski Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Randi had a bad break with a with a pepper popper (she hit 8 times and it was brutal to watch ) No reshoot given. She filed an arbitration and when I left the range they were still deliberating. Carrie and I have a couple misses and no-shoots at this point, but tomorrow is another day. So, she beat it down, and then asked for a reshoot afterward? I can sympathize.... Its hard to leave it standing for a calibration check in the heat of shooting the stage. Did they calibrate the thing after her run? Just curious what her grounds for arbitration were (though I'm sure that'll show up on the NROI site after the match... or it should). Of course... I wish I was there so I'd have to opportunity to beat a popper down, so maybe I'm a little jealous? It's one of those stages where if it happens, its really a tough call for the shooter. If she left it and called for calibration and it fell, then it would have been 2 misses and a FTE. She drilled it down and then signed her sheet. Jessie was the next shooter and we waited a LONG time for them to make adjustments to the popper before she shot. I can't remember the details of the arbitration itself (rules, etc.) Julie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 It's one of those stages where if it happens, its really a tough call for the shooter. If she left it and called for calibration and it fell, then it would have been 2 misses and a FTE. Ah... was blocking a mini behind it... She drilled it down and then signed her sheet. Jessie was the next shooter and we waited a LONG time for them to make adjustments to the popper before she shot. I can't remember the details of the arbitration itself (rules, etc.) Ok... This is one of those cases where the RO maybe should have stopped her due to REF, but that the rules don't really give the shooter an out. At that point, her only recourse is arbitration for relief in the situation at hand. Not signing her sheet may not have made any difference - the RM can declare the score stands regardless, and I'd have to bet the RM was on the stage for the adjustments? (should have been, anyway). Hopefully she gets a reshoot out of it - that's one that could go either way, though, unfortunately... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Ok... This is one of those cases where the RO maybe should have stopped her due to REF, but that the rules don't really give the shooter an out. At that point, her only recourse is arbitration for relief in the situation at hand. Not signing her sheet may not have made any difference - the RM can declare the score stands regardless, and I'd have to bet the RM was on the stage for the adjustments? (should have been, anyway). Hopefully she gets a reshoot out of it - that's one that could go either way, though, unfortunately... Why can this go either way? If the bullets were hitting and the popper didn't fall, it would seem the popper was not reset correctly or was not calibrated correctly. If it was not reset correctly, that would be REF, no? Reshoot. Poppers are not high tech, they get jammed into the ground, a piece of jacket gets stuck in the hinge, the bottom of the popper is not square to the base.... If it wasn't calibrated correctly-reshoot. I guess there are details I am not aware of, but the rules seem clear about this. Reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I guess there are details I am not aware of, but the rules seem clear about this. Reshoot. The rules are clear that - if the popper is down, it cannot be tested for the purposes of giving the shooter a reshoot (ie, the shooter cannot request a calibration on a popper that's not standing at the end of their run). The rules assume that the popper worked as intended. And, in addition, once the score sheet is signed, the shooter has agreed that that's their score and is not questioning it. The RO has the option to stop the shooter if its obvious that a piece of gear has failed, if they are able to verify what's going on, etc. Arbitration can be used to gain relief in unusual circumstances - I'm not sure I've heard of someone trying it in this situation (ie, a case when the popper was seemingly obviously mis-calibrated). Thus my interest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Ok... This is one of those cases where the RO maybe should have stopped her due to REF, but that the rules don't really give the shooter an out. At that point, her only recourse is arbitration for relief in the situation at hand. Not signing her sheet may not have made any difference - the RM can declare the score stands regardless, and I'd have to bet the RM was on the stage for the adjustments? (should have been, anyway). Hopefully she gets a reshoot out of it - that's one that could go either way, though, unfortunately... Why can this go either way? If the bullets were hitting and the popper didn't fall, it would seem the popper was not reset correctly or was not calibrated correctly. If it was not reset correctly, that would be REF, no? Reshoot. Poppers are not high tech, they get jammed into the ground, a piece of jacket gets stuck in the hinge, the bottom of the popper is not square to the base.... If it wasn't calibrated correctly-reshoot. I guess there are details I am not aware of, but the rules seem clear about this. Reshoot. Yeah, I don't think this is a 'could go either way' situation, either. She shot it down, and that unfortunately removes the opportunity for a calibration challenge for that particular competitor. I hate it because I can see the delima she had in front of her. It was a tough situation to be in, but still it's no reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I guess there are details I am not aware of, but the rules seem clear about this. Reshoot. The rules are clear that - if the popper is down, it cannot be tested for the purposes of giving the shooter a reshoot (ie, the shooter cannot request a calibration on a popper that's not standing at the end of their run). The rules assume that the popper worked as intended. And, in addition, once the score sheet is signed, the shooter has agreed that that's their score and is not questioning it. The RO has the option to stop the shooter if its obvious that a piece of gear has failed, if they are able to verify what's going on, etc. Arbitration can be used to gain relief in unusual circumstances - I'm not sure I've heard of someone trying it in this situation (ie, a case when the popper was seemingly obviously mis-calibrated). Thus my interest I got it. The popper is down; but if it took a lot of shots to hammer it, it would seem that it did not work as intended. I can see why she didn't stop herself. I would think the RO would stop her. Perhaps he wanted to, but it just happened too fast. It may not have been mis-calibrated, unless she was the first shooter. I think we have all seen poppers change over a match, or just catch a funny angle on reset. It fell for previous shooters, I assume? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Randi did not win the arbitration. Really tough break. She didn't let it phase her though and shot strong today. Ah, well... that stinks, but at least she's moved on... What's worse is losing the $100 in addition to the slow time on the stage Yeah, I don't think this is a 'could go either way' situation, either. She shot it down, and that unfortunately removes the opportunity for a calibration challenge for that particular competitor. I hate it because I can see the delima she had in front of her. It was a tough situation to be in, but still it's no reshoot. That's sort of the reason to take it to arbitration, though. I've always wondered what might happen if someone were able to make a compelling argument at an arbitration on that point - that the equipment obviously didn't work... One of my pet peeves is the interplay between chrono and steel, and the whole practice of calibration requests (once you've shot it even once, the popper has changed). Anyway, we don't want this thread drifting off any further, I'm sure... I could write a dissertation on this one... I got it. The popper is down; but if it took a lot of shots to hammer it, it would seem that it did not work as intended. I can see why she didn't stop herself. Well... don't ever stop. Not unless the RO yells STOP. If you're certain you're hitting it square, in the calibration circle or above, just move on and finish the stage, and request a popper calibration. As Julie pointed out, in this case, its an even costlier gamble - potentially a 40 point swing if the popper falls on the calibration shot. So, its hard to tear yourself away from pounding that thing down. I would think the RO would stop her. Perhaps he wanted to, but it just happened too fast. It may not have been mis-calibrated, unless she was the first shooter. I think we have all seen poppers change over a match, or just catch a funny angle on reset. It fell for previous shooters, I assume? No way to tell. Things can change as the ground beneath the popper changes/settles, junk can get caught in the hinge, etc. Previous shooters don't matter... but Randi's shooting Production (ie, minor PF), and if the squad that came before were predominantly Open (ie, Major PF), they could be driving that thing right down even it didn't fall for 150 PF ammo... The RO crew may not stop the shooter - unless they're certain that the shooter is hitting the popper squarely in or above the circle, etc, and have other reasons to suspect the popper, they could be either granting a reshoot where one isn't warranted (say, for instance, the shooter's ammo is marginal), or they could open themselves to grounds for other shooters arbitrating (what if the previous shooter had to shoot it, say, 3 times before it fell.... they shouldn't succeed in the arbitration, but still...). At a Level II or III match, probably its best that they don't stop the shooter in this case... The way for the shooter to get relief in this case is to stop engaging the popper and move on, and request calibration, and hope that they didn't change the situation downrange too much in the process of engaging it... Some popper designs just flat out suck, too (witness the poppers at the '06 Open/Production Nationals)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I guess there are details I am not aware of, but the rules seem clear about this. Reshoot. The rules are clear that - if the popper is down, it cannot be tested for the purposes of giving the shooter a reshoot (ie, the shooter cannot request a calibration on a popper that's not standing at the end of their run). The rules assume that the popper worked as intended. And, in addition, once the score sheet is signed, the shooter has agreed that that's their score and is not questioning it. The RO has the option to stop the shooter if its obvious that a piece of gear has failed, if they are able to verify what's going on, etc. So if a popper doesn't go down with a clear hit, we should move on and then request a reshoot at the end of the stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfie Posted September 14, 2009 Author Share Posted September 14, 2009 Not to kill a dead horse but here are two popper experiences we've had on our squad. On my first stage, #14, I hit the first popper three times with 3 solid hits and it didn't move. I didn't continue shooting (a mistake) and called for a calibration. When it was shot with the calibration pistol it stood straight up and then fell back into position. I got a re-shoot but I took a tremendous gamble b/c I didn't finish shooting the course of fire. I knew in my mind that my bullets make power factor and that with three solid hits something was wrong. Today on Stage #6 in the middle of a desert wind storm a shooter on my squad hit a popper twice and it never moved. The wind was so hard that three of us were holding the tent in place. The CRO yelled "Stop", the wind dies down and the popper fell. That shooter got a re-shoot too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 I guess there are details I am not aware of, but the rules seem clear about this. Reshoot. The rules are clear that - if the popper is down, it cannot be tested for the purposes of giving the shooter a reshoot (ie, the shooter cannot request a calibration on a popper that's not standing at the end of their run). The rules assume that the popper worked as intended. And, in addition, once the score sheet is signed, the shooter has agreed that that's their score and is not questioning it. The RO has the option to stop the shooter if its obvious that a piece of gear has failed, if they are able to verify what's going on, etc. So if a popper doesn't go down with a clear hit, we should move on and then request a reshoot at the end of the stage? Not a reshoot --- a calibration. The procedure's spelled out in the rulebook. If the calibration is successful, i.e. the popper is hit correctly and falls, you take applicable misses. If the calibration fails, a reshoot is indicated..... It's risky to leave a popper standing when it hides another target or activates one or multiple movers. If you decide to shoot it down, start walking your rounds up the popper -- it may fall easier to a shot near the top of the popper than it would to a center circle hit.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Yeah, I don't think this is a 'could go either way' situation, either. She shot it down, and that unfortunately removes the opportunity for a calibration challenge for that particular competitor. I hate it because I can see the delima she had in front of her. It was a tough situation to be in, but still it's no reshoot. That's sort of the reason to take it to arbitration, though. I've always wondered what might happen if someone were able to make a compelling argument at an arbitration on that point - that the equipment obviously didn't work... One of my pet peeves is the interplay between chrono and steel, and the whole practice of calibration requests (once you've shot it even once, the popper has changed). Anyway, we don't want this thread drifting off any further, I'm sure... I could write a dissertation on this one... That argument may one day be successful, but it would have to be very compelling to convince the panel to ignore the rules as they are written. Until then, the situation as described doesn't support a reshoot under the current rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRodriguez Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 So if a popper doesn't go down with a clear hit, we should move on and then request a reshoot at the end of the stage? yes, if you made the shot and know know it was good hit, continue on. That's why they paint the steel after every shooter. Any time you shoot at sectional level and up, you should have the discision made in your head that you are going to shoot this way. At a local level, hose it down, have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Spun the popper discussion off from the Open/Nationals Video production thread.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 yes, if you made the shot and know know it was good hit, continue on. That's why they paint the steel after every shooter. Any time you shoot at sectional level and up, you should have the discision made in your head that you are going to shoot this way. At a local level, hose it down, have fun. I'll disagree with John here --- in my years of competition I've seen more poppers fall on calibration than I've seen calibration failures, probably on the order of ten to one.... If it's a single popper that doesn't activate anything, by all means move on after the second or third solid shot; if it activates a paper you pretty much have to shoot it down. If it reveals another piece of steel that you can't see from anywhere else, you pretty much need to drive it down too.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Now that Nik has nicely separated this out I can say that it shouldn't matter if the popper is down-why should it matter if it is down or not to be calibrated? I know the rules say it has to be left standing, but that could be changed. If it takes 5 shots to hammer a popper down, it's not working right. We set it up after each shooter for the next shooter so what would be wrong to set it up for a calibration check? Would take about a minute. If it works, ok. If it doesn't -reshoot. I don't get the left standing part. DVC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Now that Nik has nicely separated this out I can say that it shouldn't matter if the popper is down-why should it matter if it is down or not to be calibrated? I know the rules say it has to be left standing, but that could be changed. If it takes 5 shots to hammer a popper down, it's not working right. We set it up after each shooter for the next shooter so what would be wrong to set it up for a calibration check? Would take about a minute. If it works, ok. If it doesn't -reshoot. I don't get the left standing part. DVC Because poppers have a certain mechanical element they are kind of like a river...you never stand in the same river twice...and a popper once it falls can't be guaranteed to be exactly the same as it was standing. That's why the rule is written the way it is. Poppers are imperfect and the rules on calibration are as good as it will get. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 It's an interesting topic and one that, perhaps, could have better solutions than those currently in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 (edited) She drilled it down and then signed her sheet. Jessie was the next shooter and we waited a LONG time for them to make adjustments to the popper before she shot. Interesting that they knew something was wrong and corrected it without giving her the benefit. If something had broken or changed (that needed to be fixed before Jessie could shoot) the previous shooter should have been given the benefit, whether it is detailed in the book or not, it was an equipment malfunction. Edited September 14, 2009 by L9X25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Now that Nik has nicely separated this out I can say that it shouldn't matter if the popper is down-why should it matter if it is down or not to be calibrated? I know the rules say it has to be left standing, but that could be changed. If it takes 5 shots to hammer a popper down, it's not working right. We set it up after each shooter for the next shooter so what would be wrong to set it up for a calibration check? Would take about a minute. If it works, ok. If it doesn't -reshoot. I don't get the left standing part. DVC Because poppers have a certain mechanical element they are kind of like a river...you never stand in the same river twice...and a popper once it falls can't be guaranteed to be exactly the same as it was standing. That's why the rule is written the way it is. Poppers are imperfect and the rules on calibration are as good as it will get. Curtis I love your name, I love Bayou Teche, and I love Sonny Landreth, but I have to respectfully disagree. Why can the rules on calibration not get better? I know you know a lot more about this than I do, I am just a shooter, but steel f**** up a lot, it's the nature of steel. As Xre pointed out, there are many angles to poppers falling. Targets change, poppers change, new targets get introduced. Is there some background on poppers that we need to know about that make them impervious to rule changes or modifications? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Now that Nik has nicely separated this out I can say that it shouldn't matter if the popper is down-why should it matter if it is down or not to be calibrated? I know the rules say it has to be left standing, but that could be changed. If it takes 5 shots to hammer a popper down, it's not working right. We set it up after each shooter for the next shooter so what would be wrong to set it up for a calibration check? Would take about a minute. If it works, ok. If it doesn't -reshoot. I don't get the left standing part. DVC Actually the rule makes perfect sense. If the popper has been knocked down it is assumed to NOT be in the same state as it would be if it was left standing. Therefore, the subsequent calibration is not valid anymore since the state of the popper has changed since it failed to fall after the first hit. Seems like you might be forgetting that poppers are supposed to be calibrated for power factor with a dedicated range gun and ammo and just because a popper fails to fall it is not neccessarily assumed to be out of calibration, the competitiors load could be at fault. I think it is always best to hit steel once and if you know you got a good clean hit, leave it standing and move on to finish the stage. After the stage is complete, ask the RO for a calibration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Now that Nik has nicely separated this out I can say that it shouldn't matter if the popper is down-why should it matter if it is down or not to be calibrated? I know the rules say it has to be left standing, but that could be changed. If it takes 5 shots to hammer a popper down, it's not working right. We set it up after each shooter for the next shooter so what would be wrong to set it up for a calibration check? Would take about a minute. If it works, ok. If it doesn't -reshoot. I don't get the left standing part. DVC Actually the rule makes perfect sense. If the popper has been knocked down it is assumed to NOT be in the same state as it would be if it was left standing. Therefore, the subsequent calibration is not valid anymore since the state of the popper has changed since it failed to fall after the first hit. Seems like you might be forgetting that poppers are supposed to be calibrated for power factor with a dedicated range gun and ammo and just because a popper fails to fall it is not neccessarily assumed to be out of calibration, the competitiors load could be at fault. I think it is always best to hit steel once and if you know you got a good clean hit, leave it standing and move on to finish the stage. After the stage is complete, ask the RO for a calibration. agree with larry-once it's down, there's no way to re-create it's state. arguably, once you strike it with a bullet, or many bullets, the state also can change...i have seen one pesky popper get doubled after it was shot more than once. resetting it and calibrating it proved it was set too stiff. it's a tough deal. i personally would not leave a popper with one "clean" hit. if i'm smacking it several times, that's another story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted September 14, 2009 Share Posted September 14, 2009 Now that Nik has nicely separated this out I can say that it shouldn't matter if the popper is down-why should it matter if it is down or not to be calibrated? I know the rules say it has to be left standing, but that could be changed. If it takes 5 shots to hammer a popper down, it's not working right. We set it up after each shooter for the next shooter so what would be wrong to set it up for a calibration check? Would take about a minute. If it works, ok. If it doesn't -reshoot. I don't get the left standing part. DVC Because poppers have a certain mechanical element they are kind of like a river...you never stand in the same river twice...and a popper once it falls can't be guaranteed to be exactly the same as it was standing. That's why the rule is written the way it is. Poppers are imperfect and the rules on calibration are as good as it will get. Curtis I love your name, I love Bayou Teche, and I love Sonny Landreth, but I have to respectfully disagree. Why can the rules on calibration not get better? I know you know a lot more about this than I do, I am just a shooter, but steel f**** up a lot, it's the nature of steel. As Xre pointed out, there are many angles to poppers falling. Targets change, poppers change, new targets get introduced. Is there some background on poppers that we need to know about that make them impervious to rule changes or modifications? Thanks. Sonny's an acquaintance of mine who lives one town farther down the Teche than I do...I'll pass on your best wishes next time I see him I agree with you completely that steel is imperfect. Some type of poppers work better than others but all pose potential problems. I've been on both sides of the issue. I've ROed shooters who have had problems with poppers and I've had problems myself...once requested for a calibration in a Level II match due to a popper than didn't fall and won the calibration. But once a popper is down, there is no way to test the exact same popper that the shooter was shooting at. That is the root of the problem. The bolt may have moved and bound up a little, for example, but once the popper finally falls after multiple hits, it's now freed up and working fine. If the shooter moved on, the popper probably wouldn't fall during the calibration...but then again, maybe it might because the earlier hit that didn't take it down loosened it up a little. Conversely, if the ground is getting beaten up, with every fall, the popper's base may be moving it's upright angle a degree or more backwards or forward, which will affect its operation and what sort of hit will take it down. Some of the new forward falling poppers may work a little more consistently. But the point is, there are a lot of variables that can affect a poppers operation and once it falls, it becomes nearly impossible to duplicate exactly its condition during the shooter's run. We shooters in Production with minor PF ammo have the toughest decisions in this regard. Poppers are always more problematic than a straightforward hit on paper. Once an RO has to start making judgement calls on why multiple hits don't drop it, we've traded one problem for another. Ultimately, the decision is and should be in the shooter's hands. If you hit it solid in the calibration zone and you know your ammo is to spec, then move on and call for a calibration. If you're not sure, hit it again and then move on. To me, the present system may not seem perfect, but it's as fair as possible considering the variables that poppers can present. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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