Neomet Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 One more suggestion on the dryfire. Spend at least a week or two doing it as slow as molasses concentrating on keeping the finger out of the trigger guard. I mean hours and hours of that at a very, very slow speed. That is what will start to change the hardwiring. Going fullbore in dryfire is really no different than what he is doing at the range right now but with no live rounds in the gun. Ya gotta go back to square one to unlearn this dangerous habit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cigar Guy Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 SandmanNice AD Sounded like a bump fire, not an AD. Besides that, the first shot was right on target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cigar Guy Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Might I suggest that one of the DQ'd shooter's buddies work with him on the five-step draw? Start slowly (about 25% speed) and make sure hands and fingers are in correct position for the first 100-200 repetitions before moving to any faster speed. He has obviously been doing things incorrectly for some time. After the draw is corrected, then work on getting the finger out of the trigger on the load. After that, then he should think about coming back to matches. Five step draw: 1) Grip, finger straight along trigger guard, safety on, thumb high against slide over safety. 2) Lift, finger should curl into position on frame, thumb remains in same position. 3) Rotate, muzzle towards target, fingers should start this step as in Pos. 2, and can move on way to Pos. 4. 4) Extend/smack hands together, muzzle should go STRAIGHT towards target, not dip or hit the sky, thumb safety can come off and finger prep trigger for shot by the end of this step. 5) Sights/press. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 I will make one more comment; besides the DQ, I was disappointed by the shooter not showing more sportsmanship by staying with the squad to help paste/reset for other competitors and also tear down the stage at the end of the match. He could have shown much better sportsmanship by taking his DQ and continuing to help his squad-mates. I have seen other DQ's in matches and the shooters I have seen always put their equipment away then returned to the squad to help with the rest of the match. I have much more respect for someone who takes their DQ, understands their mistake and learns from it, then shows true sportsmanship and finishes the match with his squad - including cleanup! I'd only call that a bonus. I don't think it is required for good sportsmanship. I don't think we should put pressure on folks to do all that, after a DQ. They probably have enough to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 I am going to try to work with him myself and if that doesn't help then we might need help. Thank you all for your help. Do you have a grasp of some formal draw stroke training? Along the lines of a proper 4-stroke draw...or the like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 SandmanNice AD Sounded like a bump fire, not an AD. Besides that, the first shot was right on target. I have been thinking about this all afternoon and just now got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IL-SIG Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 I will make one more comment; besides the DQ, I was disappointed by the shooter not showing more sportsmanship by staying with the squad to help paste/reset for other competitors and also tear down the stage at the end of the match. He could have shown much better sportsmanship by taking his DQ and continuing to help his squad-mates. I have seen other DQ's in matches and the shooters I have seen always put their equipment away then returned to the squad to help with the rest of the match. I have much more respect for someone who takes their DQ, understands their mistake and learns from it, then shows true sportsmanship and finishes the match with his squad - including cleanup! I'd only call that a bonus. I don't think it is required for good sportsmanship. I don't think we should put pressure on folks to do all that, after a DQ. They probably have enough to think about. Point taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blownhemi Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Alot of people are pushing the dry fire angle and I agree it's a good way to go but hours and hours as some have quoted is not the way to do it. The technique to taught to me by an internationally ranked master is slow and precise movement but in sessions of no more than 10mins. Your muscles will burn after ten minutes of this. If you go for longer or try speeding up you become lazy, and then sloppy, and then you are doing damage to what you are trying to achieve, which is a quick and precise draw. Bad dry fire practice is worse than no dry fire practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasmap Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) Alot of people are pushing the dry fire angle and I agree it's a good way to go but hours and hours as some have quoted is not the way to do it. The technique to taught to me by an internationally ranked master is slow and precise movement but in sessions of no more than 10mins. Your muscles will burn after ten minutes of this. If you go for longer or try speeding up you become lazy, and then sloppy, and then you are doing damage to what you are trying to achieve, which is a quick and precise draw. Bad dry fire practice is worse than no dry fire practice. I agree that bad practice can be as bad as no practice. I don't agree with everyone only practicing 10 minutes though. I also don't agree with ONLY using slow precise movement. I use slow precise movement in practice but I use it to build up to a "faster" precise movement. I also slow down in practice when I feel it necessary. I can practice longer than 10 minutes and my practice suffers if I don't go longer than 10 minutes. If you mean practice 10 minutes - rest 5 minutes - practice 10 minutes - rest 5 minutes - etc......then I will agree with that as a possibility. Edited September 7, 2009 by jasmap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blownhemi Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 I didn't say pactice on 10mins/day, just keep it to 10min sessions. Personally for me though just 10mins/day is fine. Dry fire is all about muscle memory - perfect the act using slow and precise movements and they will come naturally in competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaGunner Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 I am going to try to work with him myself and if that doesn't help then we might need help. Thank you all for your help. Do you have a grasp of some formal draw stroke training? Along the lines of a proper 4-stroke draw...or the like? No, I do not. What is the 4-stroke draw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 No, I do not. What is the 4-stroke draw? Why... intake, compression, power, exhaust, of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaGunner Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 No, I do not. What is the 4-stroke draw? Why... intake, compression, power, exhaust, of course... I thought we are talking about shooting here, not engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Hate to play devils advocate, but what exactly did this guy do to get his DQ? I'm seeing AD on the draw, but that is not necesarrily a DQ. Bill talks about launching one over the berm, the OP says he's got it on video and is pretty sure it hit the berm. With this info I'm guessing he didn't put it into the ground near his feet on the draw, which would be a DQ. Just because a shooter trips a round off unintentionally doesn't mean it's an automatic DQ. I've seen several shooters trip off the shot a bit early. You can always tell because they stand there and wait for the RO to stop them. They know they didn't mean to fire the shot, but it's still not a violation of the rules unless something else happens, i.e. round strikes to close, over the berm, hits the RO etc. I'm not saying I think this was safe, I'm not even saying I want to squad with the guy. But before we get the pitchforks and start lighting torches there probably needs to be a bit more info. The OP's question was answered (kind of, results out, but the name stays in so we have the record of the DQ). The information provided regarding dry fire etc. is good, I'm just curious about how bad this guys draw is that there was ever a question of it going over the berm on the draw. Unless he's doing the Charlie's Angel or going Bass Fishing the muzzle should not have been pointing over the berm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) Hate to play devils advocate, but what exactly did this guy do to get his DQ? I'm seeing AD on the draw, but that is not necesarrily a DQ. Bill talks about launching one over the berm, the OP says he's got it on video and is pretty sure it hit the berm. With this info I'm guessing he didn't put it into the ground near his feet on the draw, which would be a DQ. Just because a shooter trips a round off unintentionally doesn't mean it's an automatic DQ. I've seen several shooters trip off the shot a bit early. You can always tell because they stand there and wait for the RO to stop them. They know they didn't mean to fire the shot, but it's still not a violation of the rules unless something else happens, i.e. round strikes to close, over the berm, hits the RO etc. I'm not saying I think this was safe, I'm not even saying I want to squad with the guy. But before we get the pitchforks and start lighting torches there probably needs to be a bit more info. The OP's question was answered (kind of, results out, but the name stays in so we have the record of the DQ). The information provided regarding dry fire etc. is good, I'm just curious about how bad this guys draw is that there was ever a question of it going over the berm on the draw. Unless he's doing the Charlie's Angel or going Bass Fishing the muzzle should not have been pointing over the berm. I agree with that not all unintended discharges are AD by the rules. People with poor technique who "porpoise" the gun, do point it up at an slight angle I's like to see the video to see if I could learn something about myself but remember a bullet is out of the gun WAY BEFORE the slide moves He was standing on a "shaky bridge" platform, drawing to the right maybe 3 yards downrange and a little farther away, at a target at around five feet tall. That side berm is no where near as tall as a back one and you factor in the swaying taller platform, shorter berm, and a poor draw technique and there you go. I didn't see the video and wasn't the RO but I saw an AD, over the berm. It happens in a split second and people can make errors but if I was RO I would have made the same call. And Shooter its not dry fire that you need, you need to learn proper technique and then dryfire it in for safety. No "pitchfork" but there is a crisis. It can be corrected. PS Side motivation. You will never be able to produce a sub one second draw on demand without a proper technique so its a win win! Edited September 7, 2009 by BSeevers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayouman Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 When I first stated shooting a couple of years ago I had a few DQs by ADs. One was on the draw and over a berm and the other was during reloading and struggling to seat a full mag - with my finger in the trigger guard. That last one was about a year ago. Each time I stayed with my squad and helped tape, even through a Level II match - it was a long day since I DQed on my first stage. After that last DQ I pracitced gun handling everyday on the draw and reload with my finger exaggerated out of the trigger guard. In other words I practiced safe gun handling until I got it right. I have not DQed since. It was important that I DQed. It made me a safer shooter. Now I only have to work on being a better shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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