Shooter Banned from Host Range facility for State match

[00bullitt]

Here is the story in a nutshell.....Prior to the start of a local match during signup and squadding two shooters got into a heated altercation over squadding. Some words were exchanged and one shooter stormed off mad. Less than a minute elapsed and that shooter returned out of the clubhouse and lunged and swung at the other striking him across the chin and several bystanders quickly intervened to break it up. The shooter that threw the punch was sent home and disciplinary action was started by USPSA and the host range of which he was a member. USPSA deemed it necessary to place him on probation. The host range terminated his membership and he was banned from the range. Well.....the host range also decided it was a good idea to ban the other shooter who was the recipient of the punch although that individual tried to take the high road and avoid confrontation. Seems the host club had a zero tolerance policy on fighting and decided both should be banned from the property. Yeah....I know......plenty of drama:huh:

My question is this........if the state match is being held at this range. Can the host facility still ban him from the facility and not allow him to shoot the sanctioned match of which he is a member? Common sense tells me yes but I interpret the rule book a bit different in rule 3.3 below. Looks like the host range may need to get legal document preventing him from coming? How should this play out?

WWKGD?

3.3 Applicability of Rules:

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations

may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal

precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not

in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without

the express consent of the President of USPSA.

Edited June 29, 2009 by 00bullitt

[jpl]

My question is this........if the state match is being held at this range. Can the host facility still ban him from the facility and not allow him to shoot the sanctioned match of which he is a member? Common sense tells me yes but I interpret the rule book a bit different in rule 3.3 below. Looks like the host range may need to get legal document preventing him from coming? How should this play out?

Yes, per the following rule:

6.4.4 An individual may be barred from participating in a USPSA match, at

the match director’s discretion, if the person:

a. has demonstrated an inability to safely complete courses of fire, or

b. has demonstrated behavior which would or may disrupt the match,

or which would bring disrepute to the sport.

[George Jones]

There may be several jurisdictions involved here, depending on how the USPSA club is structured (their relationship to) the range. Many clubs are individual entities who are simply "tenants" of the range. Some clubs are "sub-divisions" of the range where they play and have a role in the leadership of the range.

In most cases, a range (whether a commercial enterprise or a member-owned entity) has the right to control their facility and access thereto.

A USPSA club, on the other hand, is, by their affiliation agreement, subject to the organization's bylaws and rulebook.

Since "the range" has imposed the ban, the USPSA club may not directly involved in that restriction (depending on the relatiosnhip mentioned above). In other words, unless the club had a role on the decision to ban, the club has no say in what happened.

If the club had a say or control over the decision, then the club is bound by Rule 6.4, particularly 6.4.4 and 6.4.5.

This is never a comfortable situation, regardless of the cause or controlling entity. If it does involve the club, then 6.4.5 is there to give the member some protection in the form of a review process.

HTH

[00bullitt]

My question is this........if the state match is being held at this range. Can the host facility still ban him from the facility and not allow him to shoot the sanctioned match of which he is a member? Common sense tells me yes but I interpret the rule book a bit different in rule 3.3 below. Looks like the host range may need to get legal document preventing him from coming? How should this play out?

Yes, per the following rule:

6.4.4 An individual may be barred from participating in a USPSA match, at

the match director’s discretion, if the person:

a. has demonstrated an inability to safely complete courses of fire, or

b. has demonstrated behavior which would or may disrupt the match,

or which would bring disrepute to the sport.

But would that apply here? The host range followed a zero tolerance policy regardless of how this played out. They did not even consider his side of what happened and just banned both parties. I am talking about the recipient of the punch. The one who did not start or instigate this situation.

[steel1212]

Regardless of what USPSA says, if the host range says he can't come there, then he can't come there. I don't think its up to USPSA at this point.

[sci]

If i knew that a club would ban someone for being assaulted on there property i think i would find somewhere else to shoot.Chances are that that club would have lots of other issuies

Steve

Edited June 29, 2009 by sci

[Canuck223]

My question is this........if the state match is being held at this range. Can the host facility still ban him from the facility and not allow him to shoot the sanctioned match of which he is a member? Common sense tells me yes but I interpret the rule book a bit different in rule 3.3 below. Looks like the host range may need to get legal document preventing him from coming? How should this play out?

Yes, per the following rule:

6.4.4 An individual may be barred from participating in a USPSA match, at

the match director's discretion, if the person:

a. has demonstrated an inability to safely complete courses of fire, or

b. has demonstrated behavior which would or may disrupt the match,

or which would bring disrepute to the sport.

But would that apply here? The host range followed a zero tolerance policy regardless of how this played out. They did not even consider his side of what happened and just banned both parties. I am talking about the recipient of the punch. The one who did not start or instigate this situation.

I have to feel some sympathy for the guy, depending on the circumstances. We all know IPSC is full of type A personalities. Sometimes folks need to be addressed firmly, and told off if that doesn't work. Getting swung at isn't fun, but standing your ground sometimes means you're putting your chin on the line.

As for the range, well sometimes it's smarter to not take sides, even when it could be very easy to do so. As I said above, it would suck to miss out on a match for taking a punch.

[DrawandDuck]

I would say the range would have the final decision, sucks but its their range allowing the USPSA club to use the facility.

[BritinUSA]

If it were me, I would politely petition the BOD of the club to reverse their decision regarding the victim of the assault.

[BlackBuzzard]

Something similar happened (nearly a fight) years ago in Dallas.......

And of all things it was an argument over Glock verus 1911 platforms at an IDPA match.

No doubt some DFW area readers will recall this........please, no names or ranges.

BB

[aztecdriver]

Assuming that a) USPSA rules are binding and that the host organization may not prohibit a USPSA member in good standing from attending a sanctioned match (otherwise, who's to say they ban Dave Sevigny just because they say they think he has an attitude), the only way to have him NOT show up for a match he's registered and squaded for is to enforce 6.4.4.

The gotcha is they could argue to the match director that it will bring the sport into ill repute - which is always the catch all right.

Something else I see that plays in here:

7.1.7 Match Director("MD") - handles overall match administration including squadding scheduling, range construction, the coordination of all support staff and the provision of services. His Authority and decisions will prevail with regard to all matters except in respect of matters in these rules which are the domain of the Range Master. The Match Director is appointed by the host organization and works with the Range Master.

Add to this 3.3 and realize that this local rule is NOT bringing them into compliance with a local juridictional law - it seems pretty clear cut - the only way to keep this person from not participating in the match is through 6.4.4 - for behavior that COULD bring the sport into ill repute, and it's the match directors' responsibility to make that call.

Edited June 29, 2009 by aztecdriver

[shred]

If the range is like all of them around here where the range business merely rents the berms to the USPSA club for the duration of the matches, then the range would be completely within their rights to ban the person, stupid rule or not. A private range could have them arrested for trespass, USPSA rules or not if they so desired. They could also easily throw the USPSA club off the property as well if they so desired.

Yea, it's a stupid rule, but is it worth risking the whole club or match for? I'd think a quiet petition for some nominal penance would be called for before getting all confrontational.. as that's kinda how this started.

[Bill Nesbitt]

The argument was over squadding???

Sounds to me like both parties need to step back until they can keep a cooler head.

It takes two to have an argument.

[Airedale]

The argument was over squadding???

Sounds to me like both parties need to step back until they can keep a cooler head.

It takes two to have an argument.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Dave

[00bullitt]

OK.....so its as I figured......USPSA can't really do anything. I don't agree with the host range's decision to ban both parties but today that seems to be the status quo. Cops almost always arrest both parties in a domestic violence dispute and just about all schools have a zero tolerance policy on fighting regardless of who started it.

Yeah.....the guy that swung first was put in charge of evening out the squad list and went about it the wrong way and was creating a disturbance. He was moving and telling people instead of asking. People go to these matches to shoot with their buddies and prefer not be seperated. The guy that got hit said he didn't want to move squads unless his buddy was moved as well. Well that is what started it....and the squadmaster got all bent out of shape. One guy was a senior and the other was a super senior. And the super senior threw the punch. How you like them apples?

So now we have a guy that became victim of circumstance who cannot shoot our state match because of the position the host range took on the incident.

[Flexmoney]

Doesn't sound like there is much more here as far as a rules discussion.

And, I don't want us to get pulled into airing specific issues that happen with particular matches/clubs/people.

So, I will close this down. If there is any relevant additions as far as the rules go, please contact a moderator and we will look at adding them.

- Admin.