Hitting below the point of aim

[Cy Soto]

My wife and I have been shooting USPSA for a little bit over one year. All of this time she has been dealing with an issue that we both thought had disappeared, but has recently resurfaced. When she is slow firing, her shots are tightly grouped but, when she picks up the pace, her shots start to dip below her point of aim; especially her second shot on every target.

To the best of my knowledge, she is not flinching (her eyes are not closing neither just before nor as the shot breaks). A couple of other things to note is that she is focused on the front sight of her pistol and not looking for her shot on the target and, I don’t think she is tensing her shoulder muscles as she is shooting. It is possible that she is "milking the gun" but I can't be certain of that.

Those shots that are hitting low are pretty much centered on the target but end up either low on the "A" zone or bellow that. For example, during a COF she ends up with a lot of "Alpha, Nuts" (one Alpha; one low Charlie or Delta) especially on targets beyond 15yds (see picture: first shot falls near the POA while the second shot falls underneath it).

We have tried the “ball and dummy” drill and neither she nor I can see the front sight dipping at the moment the hammer falls. But, like I mentioned before, this problem doesn’t happen when she is slow firing, only when she tries to speed up her shots.

What may be causing her POI to be below POA? Are there any drills that you would recommend she practices that can help her get rid of this problem?

Thanks,

Cy

Edited June 12, 2009 by Cy Soto

[Will Abrahams]

just out of curiosity what do the hits look like when she does bill drills?

[badchad]

My wife and I have been shooting USPSA for a little bit over one year. All of this time she has been dealing with an issue that we both thought had disappeared, but has recently resurfaced. When she is slow firing, her shots are tightly grouped but, when she picks up the pace, her shots start to dip below her point of aim; especially her second shot on every target.

To the best of my knowledge, she is not flinching (her eyes are not closing neither just before nor as the shot breaks). A couple of other things to note is that she is focused on the front sight of her pistol and not looking for her shot on the target and, I don’t think she is tensing her shoulder muscles as she is shooting. It is possible that she is "milking the gun" but I can't be certain of that.

Those shots that are hitting low are pretty much centered on the target but end up either low on the "A" zone or bellow that. For example, during a COF she ends up with a lot of "Alpha, Nuts" (one Alpha; one low Charlie or Delta) especially on targets beyond 15yds (see picture: first shot falls near the POA while the second shot falls underneath it).

We have tried the “ball and dummy” drill and neither she nor I can see the front sight dipping at the moment the hammer falls. But, like I mentioned before, this problem doesn’t happen when she is slow firing, only when she tries to speed up her shots.

What may be causing her POI to be below POA? Are there any drills that you would recommend she practices that can help her get rid of this problem?

Thanks,

Cy

[Cy Soto]

just out of curiosity what do the hits look like when she does bill drills?

That is a good question; I hadn't thought about that...

We haven't practiced Bill Drills in a while and, last time we did, she was not having this problem so her shots where pretty much centered on the target. Maybe this is a drill that we should revisit to see how her shots are "grouped" on the target. Thanks for the suggestion.

We will shoot some Bill Drill this weekend and I will post the results here.

Edited June 12, 2009 by Cy Soto

[Pezco]

This sounds like a trigger control issue. I'm no expert but, it sounds like she is getting too much finger on the trigger and pulling the follow up shots. Are the shots going straight down to 6 o clock or to 7 or 5 o clock and is she right or left handed?

[CHA-LEE]

Cy> I have seen her shoot and ROed her when she was hitting low. Its 100% flinch/anticipation of recoil. She is trying to offset the recoil by pushing forward/down on the gun right before it fires. She needs to let the recoil happen and not fight it.

Have her shoot into the berm, not even at a target, with a purposeful shot cadence of 1 shot every 2 - 3 seconds with the focus of remembering her arm/hand resistance to the shots. Then have her shoot 5 - 10 rounds into the berm as fast as she can. Focusing on her arm/hand resistance to the shots again. Both shooting conditions should produce the same arm/hand resistance. If she is bearing down on the gun when she shoots fast, that is the cause of the low hits.

You may also want to work on fine tuning the recoil spring to her grip. If the front sight is dipping below level after the shot, then a softer slide spring is needed.

When I have seen her shoot she seems to lose control of the returning sight picture post shot and has to realign the sights after the shot. If this is happening then the gun is not balanced to her grip, or her grip is failing during the shot.

This is a self fulfilling prophesy in bearing down on the gun while shooting. If she feels like the gun is flipping out of control while shooting then she is going to bear down on it and anticipate the recoil more, which will cause her shots to go low. Get the gun balanced to her grip, or change her grip to be balanced to the gun. Once the gun is balanced to her it will be a LOT easier for her to minimize or eliminate the anticipation of the recoil which is causing the POI issues.

[Flexmoney]

[edit...I just read CHA-LEE's post. Go with that instead of mine...as he given a better description as to what is happening.]

I call that...Prairie Doggin.

Assuming the gun is good to go and she understands proper sight alignment (top of front sight dead even with the top of the rear sight)...

...then, it's a lack of follow-through. The shooter starts to pick the head up a bit to see the results of the shoot...which then grows into dropping the gun down as the shot is fired.

She will need to align the sights for EACH shot. And, see the front sight lift out of the notch for each shot.

And, for now...to help with the follow through...she should get a 3rd sight picture on the target (as if she were going to shoot it again).

[zhunter]

Load her mags for her, and don't tell her how many are in the mag. At about 5 yards, have her empty the mag in at medium speed. When the mag is empty, I bet she will see she is pushing it against the recoil.

Just a thought

[eerw]

Hey Cy.

I talked with Sandra yesterday a little about this..hoping to catch up with you guys Sunday at the match..

[SA Friday]

Hmmm, I could see it being two things, fighting recoil like Charlie said or not following through like Flex said. Regardless of which of the two is causing it, she is obviously not calling her second shot. Because of this, I think Flex's recommendation of a third sight picture would identify/reconcile the problem pretty quick. If she takes the third sight picture, she should be able to SEE if she's fighting that second's shot recoil. If she doesn't SEE this happening, then she's apparently switching her sight focus to the target to SEE where the rounds are hitting paper. I would check this with a target at about 8-10 yards, just far enough where if she's switching her focus to the paper instead of following through with the shot, but close enough that she should still be able to call her shot within an inch or two.

[TWHaz]

Cy> I have seen her shoot and ROed her when she was hitting low. Its 100% flinch/anticipation of recoil. She is trying to offset the recoil by pushing forward/down on the gun right before it fires. She needs to let the recoil happen and not fight it.

Have her shoot into the berm, not even at a target, with a purposeful shot cadence of 1 shot every 2 - 3 seconds with the focus of remembering her arm/hand resistance to the shots. Then have her shoot 5 - 10 rounds into the berm as fast as she can. Focusing on her arm/hand resistance to the shots again. Both shooting conditions should produce the same arm/hand resistance. If she is bearing down on the gun when she shoots fast, that is the cause of the low hits.

You may also want to work on fine tuning the recoil spring to her grip. If the front sight is dipping below level after the shot, then a softer slide spring is needed.

When I have seen her shoot she seems to lose control of the returning sight picture post shot and has to realign the sights after the shot. If this is happening then the gun is not balanced to her grip, or her grip is failing during the shot.

This is a self fulfilling prophesy in bearing down on the gun while shooting. If she feels like the gun is flipping out of control while shooting then she is going to bear down on it and anticipate the recoil more, which will cause her shots to go low. Get the gun balanced to her grip, or change her grip to be balanced to the gun. Once the gun is balanced to her it will be a LOT easier for her to minimize or eliminate the anticipation of the recoil which is causing the POI issues.

Ditto

[G-ManBart]

Yep, she either has a pretty significant pre-ignition anticipation push or she's just pressing the trigger twice without a real sight picture on the second shot.

[HI5-O]

Maybe you try to press the trigger for her. Have her just hold the pistol and align the sights. Then place your finger on the trigger and start to press, telling her to only keep the sights aligned.

You will learn if she is aligning the sights correctly and if she is anticipating the shot.

Helps to diagnose what the problem could be. Most of the time it's trigger control or more likely lack of trigger control.

Then, next you can have her place her finger on the trigger and overlay your finger on hers. Tell her to relax the finger and you will do the pressing. This should help her in getting the feel of a good trigger press.

Don't give up

Edited June 13, 2009 by HI5-O

[Cy Soto]

This past week (including the weekend) was a bit busy and I didn't have a chance to load this video sooner: VIDEO OF SANDRA SHOOTING. On the video she is shooting a 4" x 4" square on the top 1/3 portion of a USPSA target at 15yds.

If you watch closely (through all the smoke) you will notice that she is shutting her eyes as the shot breaks. Also, though I can't see it well on the video, I believe that she is also "pushing" the gun in anticipation of the recoil. I need to try out the drills that CHA-LEE suggested which will hopefully eliminate the problem.

Thank you all for the tips that you have given us so far and, if you see any other other things that we can help her improve, please let me know.

[JThompson]

I see her closing the one eye and it looks like she "may" be closing the other as the shot breaks, but with the quality of the video it's very hard to tell.

She's "Milking" the grip Cy....

Edited June 23, 2009 by JThompson

[CHA-LEE]

YouTube is hard to use for breaking down the process frame by frame, but from what I could see the muzzle flip height between the first and second shots is quite different. The first shot the gun flips quite a bit and then the second shot it flips less. This could be part of the bearing down for the second shot. I know Sandra is a very petite lady, it might make more sense for her to lean into the gun more when shooting. Try a stance with her left foot about a shoe length forward of her right foot, then have her lean forward until her nose is in front of her left foots toes. Have her bend her knees a little as well. Think of a stance where you could launch forward easily without needing to move your feet to get going.

Now for her arm position. Her arms look like they are almost fully locked out at the elbows. This transmits the recoil straight back into her shoulders and then to the rest of her body. Everyone has a different natural arm position when their hands are together with their arms in front of them outstretched. The best way that I know to find this "Natural" arm position is to stand straight up with your arms and hands relaxed at your sides. Then simply bend forward at the waist until your back is level with the ground. Let your arms hang freely towards the ground in this position. Now, bend only your elbows with as little effort as possible to make your hands meet in a mach grip. Keep your hands elbows and shoulders in this position and raise your back up until you are standing straight again. Your arms should be up in front of you in the same position as they were before when they were hanging. This is your natural arm position. This bent elbow arm position will create a very steady and flexible platform to shoot from. Since your elbows are slightly bent they will act like mini shock absorbers and soak up most of the recoil so not much gets transmitted back into your body. The camming forward of the weak hand wrist as well as grip strength of the weak hand is what will control most of the muzzle flip. Give this a try and see how it works out for her. Yes, it will feel strange the first couple times she shoots like this, but it should be a lot better shooting platform for her to not only shoot from but also move after shooting with.

[S391]

Great stuff, thanks for the info. I've been dealing with the same problem lately and it's been giving me a bugger of a tough time. I appreciate all of the info and I have a little better idea of what I might be doing that is causing me to shoot low all the time.