whoops while clearing my gun after shooting a stage

[Dan Hefta]

A lot of local matches that I have attended don't have enough "real" RO's attending to run shooters, so you end up with shooters running shooters and some of the rules get overlooked. This case was clearly a DQable offense but we were not there to make that call. Our Section just held a Level One RO course and we had 20+ shooters attend including myself, so we are going in the right direction. It is a very hard thing to DQ your buddy, you will feel like a real prick but it has to done sometimes.

Edited June 11, 2009 by danscrapbags

[JThompson]

You and the guys need to... GET TO AN RO CLASS!

Edited June 11, 2009 by JThompson

[Canuck223]

When I took my Black Badge course, back in the mesozoic era, most people would eject the mag and stuff it between the 4th and 5th finger of the dominant hand, then roll the weak hand over the ejection port to catch the live round in the chamber.

They would hold the gun up at shoulder height with the weak hand under the gun, palm up showing the live round. In one glance, the RO could see the ejected mag, live round, and empty chamber.

That was before people started adding scopes, and extended ejectors. When folks started accidently lighting off rounds while ejecting, the format changed.

[JThompson]

When I took my Black Badge course, back in the mesozoic era, most people would eject the mag and stuff it between the 4th and 5th finger of the dominant hand, then roll the weak hand over the ejection port to catch the live round in the chamber.

They would hold the gun up at shoulder height with the weak hand under the gun, palm up showing the live round. In one glance, the RO could see the ejected mag, live round, and empty chamber.

That was before people started adding scopes, and extended ejectors. When folks started accidently lighting off rounds while ejecting, the format changed.

In some cases you are more apt to light one off the that way than to just rack the slide. Do some searches, if you like, it's been covered.

JT

Edited June 11, 2009 by JThompson

[kgunz11]

ironb, how long have you been competing in USPSA? Any other pistol sports?

[Stuck in C]

As an RO, I notice that some shooters (usually experienced) will, on the command "unload and show clear" , drop the magazine, eject the round, drop the hammer and holster the weapon in one smooth motion without waiting for the next command. This is a bad habit. I politely tell them "you didn't show clear, please remove your weapon from the holster and show me clear, then wait for the next command", i.e we start over. Sometimes I can say "stop, show me the chamber" before they holster. I suppose you could DQ someone for this but in these cases I don't think its necessary.

[kgunz11]

I suppose you could DQ someone for this but in these cases I don't think its necessary.

Is there a rule to support a DQ for someone not showing it clear to you? The only thing I know of you can do is start over as you said do. Don't remember seeing a rule that would allow you to DQ them.

[scottrebello]

The RO really has to keep the shooter under control. Too many shooters new and old want to rush the slide forward hammer down. We need to pause there and really pay attention. Im a production shooter and I just lock my slide until I get the command. I know its different for open and ltd guns and its tough for me as a RO if Im not focused watching them.

[JThompson]

I suppose you could DQ someone for this but in these cases I don't think its necessary.

Is there a rule to support a DQ for someone not showing it clear to you? The only thing I know of you can do is start over as you said do. Don't remember seeing a rule that would allow you to DQ them.

No and I don't think we need one either.

If it goes bang they go home.

It does annoy me as if they are dismissing your authority on the range. Occasionally I will have them pull it back out and try again, but mostly I just tell them to slow it down.

Edited June 11, 2009 by JThompson

[aztecdriver]

Maybe it's all in the experience. My first competition of any sort with a firearm was an indoor glock match. The commands are the same, except you holstered a slide-locked weapon. Every time unload and show clear was given, each RO walked down the range, looked and touched you on the shoulder to confirm they saw the empty chamber. Not that I expect that, but my local club ROs are good about checking. Most times, I drop the mag and when I rack the slide, it's at the right position for the RO to see the slide come back, and most times catch the ejected round as it flies over my right shoulder at him. I figure it saves him seeing the eject and saves me from bending over to pick it up

I once had run the slide back and showed clear, but when i let it go, thought I saw something strange in the chamber area, but instinctively dropped the hammer. Still went click, but I didn't know what I saw, so I racked the slide back and was looking in the chamber again - but the RO had said holster before I did that. I don't know if he had said "range is clear", but I think he said the command and turned over his right shoulder to announce the range was clear, but I was still holding my weapon. Before anyone could move down range of me, I put the hammer down and in my holster. Nothing else was said. I'm even more deliberate with my ROs now. And taking the class on the 27th

[Flexmoney]

A DQ at the weekend shooting match isn't the end all. It's just a match.

We should not feel bad doing our duty as an RO by issuing a DQ that our shooting buddy has earned. It's the flip side of that that we need to feel bad about.

What happens when you don't issue the DQ? You compromise safety. You set a bad example. And, you run off those that know you should have, because they see you "don't run matches under the safety rules". Ultimately, you put USPSA, IPSC and practical shooting in general in a bad light.

ironb is a new shooter. As I said earlier, I didn't mean for this to be a dog-pile. I applaud him for sharing...so that others may learn. And, hopefully, the match officials at his home club will learn and improve as well.

[larry cazes]

A DQ at the weekend shooting match isn't the end all. It's just a match.

We should not feel bad doing our duty as an RO by issuing a DQ that our shooting buddy has earned. It's the flip side of that that we need to feel bad about.

What happens when you don't issue the DQ? You compromise safety. You set a bad example. And, you run off those that know you should have, because they see you "don't run matches under the safety rules". Ultimately, you put USPSA, IPSC and practical shooting in general in a bad light.

ironb is a new shooter. As I said earlier, I didn't mean for this to be a dog-pile. I applaud him for sharing...so that others may learn. And, hopefully, the match officials at his home club will learn and improve as well.

Very well said. We don't drive this point home often enough. Maybe BE should make you a mod......Er, never mind

[Jack Suber]

As an RO, if a shooter clears his pistol before I can see the chamber is clear, I will make him show me it is clear. I will not let him move or give the clear command until I verify. When I teach new shooter classes, I make my students show the RO that the chamber is clear and then verify themselves before letting the hammer down. It is just a matter of how it is taught. Once this is done for a while, it will become habit. However, after reading this thread, it appears that an RO class is definitely in order.

The stage in video Flex posted is just plain scary, IMO.

[Bigbadaboom]

Everything else stated here aside, that is a D.Q. due to the finger inside the trigger guard while loading, reloading, unloading or whatever you where doing. The gun went bang and you didn't intend for it to. I recognize it very well. Besides the umteen times I've seen it happen while R.O.ing others I've D.Q.ed myself for it 3 times.

Time to get back to practicing the USPSA safety basics 101 during you regular practice regimen. Some of us need a refresher once in a while.

[EkuJustice]

That one stage Flex posted was definately a 180 NIGHTMARE. You are responsible for watcing the 180 but stage makers need to avoid the major 180 traps where you dont really have a choice but to shoot on the 180. That includes stages like that, hidden target stages where you cant really see a target till you are about 175 and take an extra half step and you just broke the 180. If you choose to game a stage and push right up to the 180 is one thing but it shouldn't be expected to have to ride the 180 that closely

[VegasOPM]

That one stage Flex posted was definately a 180 NIGHTMARE. You are responsible for watcing the 180 but stage makers need to avoid the major 180 traps where you dont really have a choice but to shoot on the 180. That includes stages like that, hidden target stages where you cant really see a target till you are about 175 and take an extra half step and you just broke the 180. If you choose to game a stage and push right up to the 180 is one thing but it shouldn't be expected to have to ride the 180 that closely

I am the MD for the Club where that video was shot so I was extremely concerned about the discussion. I didn't recognize that stage though (it was during a match when I was out of town) and I agree that it was set up poorly, which I will discuss with the person that filled in for me. The House in that video does have a couple of 180 traps, which are well known to the local ROs. The windows are not parallel by design, so the shooter is actually engaging targets at 150 degrees or so ( the setup in that video notwithstanding) and the house is usually shot from inside.

Oh, and we have an NROI course scheduled for August.

Edited June 12, 2009 by VegasOPM

[VegasOPM]

As for the initial video, I can see the case for a DQ, but I can also see where it wouldn't be. It was quite obviously unplanned from the video- but the RO was looking elsewhere. I was shooting the Curacao Open with a Master Class shooter and from a distance, the scene would have looked identical. He had finished shooting a quick steel stage- the RO said IFULSC, he had dropped his mag and realized that one steel plate hadn't fallen, so he shot it one handed with the remaining round in the gun. The shooter was still engaged in the COF, and took a shot (while in the process of unloading) to avoid the mike.

[kgunz11]

As for the initial video, I can see the case for a DQ, but I can also see where it wouldn't be. It was quite obviously unplanned from the video- but the RO was looking elsewhere.

We must be watching different videos. In this one

the RO is looking right at the shooter and his gun. He is projecting the timer to the score keeper, but still watching the shooter. I don't hear the ULSC commands, and if he is not engaging a target it was an AD. And we know how to handle those.

I don't think ironb is a bad guy and I don't think anyone should take his guns away from him, but some training is in order with the finger in the trigger guard.

[ironb]

ironb, how long have you been competing in USPSA? Any other pistol sports?

i've been shooting uspsa for a little over two months now. uspsa is the first time i really started shooting a pistol. prior to that, it was all airguns in my backyard killing annoying pigeons.

[ironb]

I don't think ironb is a bad guy and I don't think anyone should take his guns away from him, but some training is in order with the finger in the trigger guard.

thanks man! yeah, I definitely learned something that day. it scared the crap out of me. i'll be DAMN sure never to do that one again. (I think that is what's most important, and really the reason I started this topic - being safety conscious is important.)

[kgunz11]

I am not far ahead of you Bro. I started last March, but every since my first match I have ate, breathed, and slept USPSA. I have been involved in some form of competitive shooting since I was 7 though.

[kgunz11]

I don't think ironb is a bad guy and I don't think anyone should take his guns away from him, but some training is in order with the finger in the trigger guard.

thanks man! yeah, I definitely learned something that day. it scared the crap out of me. i'll be DAMN sure never to do that one again. (I think that is what's most important, and really the reason I started this topic - being safety conscious is important.)

And I commend you for it. Many have learned from it already. Thanks!

[ironb]

That one stage Flex posted was definately a 180 NIGHTMARE. You are responsible for watcing the 180 but stage makers need to avoid the major 180 traps where you dont really have a choice but to shoot on the 180. That includes stages like that, hidden target stages where you cant really see a target till you are about 175 and take an extra half step and you just broke the 180. If you choose to game a stage and push right up to the 180 is one thing but it shouldn't be expected to have to ride the 180 that closely

I am the MD for the Club where that video was shot so I was extremely concerned about the discussion. I didn't recognize that stage though (it was during a match when I was out of town) and I agree that it was set up poorly, which I will discuss with the person that filled in for me. The House in that video does have a couple of 180 traps, which are well known to the local ROs. The windows are not parallel by design, so the shooter is actually engaging targets at 150 degrees or so ( the setup in that video notwithstanding) and the house is usually shot from inside.

Oh, and we have an NROI course scheduled for August.

Keith, that was shot at desert lake, not desert sportsman. fyi.

[ironb]

my post got hosed above, but what i was trying to say was the topic of this discussion, the AD that happened, was at desert lake, not at sportsman, fyi

Edited June 12, 2009 by ironb

[VegasOPM]

Keith, that was shot at desert lake, not desert sportsman. fyi.

Brad,

I was referring to the House stage video where several commented on the 180 issues. As for the AD, I'm betting that you missed a step on your unload and show clear procedure. Mag out, clear chamber... then... pull trigger. I have done that same thing in practice- only with an AR. That was a shocker! The good news for you was that you were pointing in a safe direction when you pulled the trigger.