Limited not going into battery

[DarthMuffin]

I have a Witness Elite Limited that I bought new and started shooting this year. I've shot it in 2 local matches and many practice sessions without any issues, except for a few nose-dives that I seemed to have fixed by going with a longer [than .40 SAAMI spec] OAL. This weekend it (and me -- my brain is full, can I be excused?) really got a workout at a training class with Max Michel and Travis Tomasie (Max really likes the gun, btw). The gun was giving me problems failing to return to battery. It happend 4 times, and each time it pretty much puts you out of whatever you were doing (if it were a match, I'd have had to DNF the stage).

The symptom is that it stops about 1/4", maybe a little less, from going into battery. The slide won't go forward. With great effort you can pull the slide back.

The first time it happened I field stripped the gun and found a small piece of brass stuck on the front edge of the chamber. Removed that and it was fine.

The second time it happened I just ran a bore snake through it and it was fine again.

The third time after cycling about 4 rounds through it eventually started feeding again on it's own.

The fourth time I just put the gun away and went to my USP backup gun. Going to the USP after the Tanfoglio I feel like I'm driving a truck on an autocross course, but at least it goes bang EVERY time.

I don't think it's out of spec ammo because each time I tried cycling in a few more rounds and even changing mags with the same result.

It happened both early in the day when the gun was clean, and later on after 700 rounds.

The gun has a 10lb recoil spring, 13lb hammer spring, Henning XL firing pin and titefit slide pin .

Ammo is once fired (most from a Glock) Winchester brass, WSP primer, 4.7gr titegroup, 180gr Montana Gold JHP, 1.175-1.180 OAL, ran through an EGW "U" die and taper crimped to about .421. I feeds fine, save for one nose-dive with a really dirty mag.

Any ideas guys? I'd appreciate any input since it's not really reliable enough to use in a match at this point. Thanks.

Edited June 8, 2009 by DarthMuffin

[mike_pinto]

Get rid of the 10lb spring. same thing happened to me at the Nationals last year. When they are new and the chamber gets a little fouled, you are hosed. Run the 12 pounder that came with it until you get about 10K through her. The problem is a combination of it being tight, slight bulge in brass, and the spring being too light. Run the 12 and be done with it. Henning recommends the 10lb spring, but if you have ever "rattled" one of his guns, you will see they are well broke in!

[DarthMuffin]

I'll give that a try, thanks. I also ordered one of Henning's 10.75lb springs too. Once I'm ready for it I'll go straight there and forget the 10lb one.

[ks-shooter]

I'll give that a try, thanks. I also ordered one of Henning's 10.75lb springs too. Once I'm ready for it I'll go straight there and forget the 10lb one.

Do you chamber check your ammo? If not, you need to do it. Yes, one case out of 200 may have a bulged base that does not allow it to fully chamber. The question is when you clear the jam can you take that same round and get it to feed the next time? If it is difficult to reopen the gun which you noted then it is most likely a bulged case(s). I use a U-die and still chamber check EVERY round if I will be shooting it in a match or if it is more than just backyard practice drills. Good luck

Edited June 8, 2009 by ks-shooter

[LeoHallak]

I'll give that a try, thanks. I also ordered one of Henning's 10.75lb springs too. Once I'm ready for it I'll go straight there and forget the 10lb one.

Do you chamber check your ammo? If not, you need to do it. Yes, one case out of 200 may have a bulged base that does not allow it to fully chamber. The question is when you clear the jam can you take that same round and get it to feed the next time? If it is difficult to reopen the gun which you noted then it is most likely a bulged case(s). I use a U-die and still chamber check EVERY round if I will be shooting it in a match or if it is more than just backyard practice drills. Good luck

I have noticed more on my open then limited but the gun prefers lube on lockup with the 10lb springs and if the gun gets dry it doesn't hit battery always.. Slide glide usually keep the gun running very well.

Leo

[Big Bear]

I had the same thing going on a year ago. After talking with different local guys and Henning it was determined I needed a better bullet seat die. Something like an egw or what Henning is selling on his site is recommended. I went the cheap route and got a set of Lee dies. Never looked back. On my third pistol running 11lbs spring no proiblems. Also case checking each round is a great idea. Additionally I polished the chambers on everything now and the feed ramps. Hope some of this helps.

[Big Bear]

Another tidbit I picked up shooting with Todd Jarret last summer. He carries a zip lock baggy with a rag in it. before he loads his mag he puts the bullets in the bag (10 or so at a time) and sprays in silicone lube. Shakes them around and then loads. I do this for big matches where DNF spells death.

[CocoBolo]

+1 on Size Check your ammo, and if it don't drop in throw it in a practice bucket. With the length you are running the bullet may not go in the gauge all the way, so when checking these they must go all the way to the groove before the rim, then you take them out and put them in backwards if they fit both ways they are good.

40 cal take a lot of crimp, I judge this by running 10 or 12 and drop checking them if the all drop good this it is enough, the ones that don't I take another 1/8th round till they drop.

On 40's for match I run the brass thru only deprime and size then the ones that pass drop check get loaded. I do a second drop check after loading. Yes I spend a lot of time doing this, but I am not wasting time at the match dinking around trying to clear a jam.

TiteGroup is a fairly dirty powder, I use it only with 200 gr bullets at 4.3 gr. I use N320 and WST as cleaner than TiteGroup, wst at 5.1-5.2 and N320 at 5.0 gr with 180gr jacketed bullets.

The OAL on your rounds is longer than I have loaded for Tanfo and CZ TS which if I recall correctly is 1.160 max. I load 1.190 and even 1.200 on my STI.

[DarthMuffin]

I'll give that a try, thanks. I also ordered one of Henning's 10.75lb springs too. Once I'm ready for it I'll go straight there and forget the 10lb one.

Do you chamber check your ammo? If not, you need to do it. Yes, one case out of 200 may have a bulged base that does not allow it to fully chamber. The question is when you clear the jam can you take that same round and get it to feed the next time? If it is difficult to reopen the gun which you noted then it is most likely a bulged case(s). I use a U-die and still chamber check EVERY round if I will be shooting it in a match or if it is more than just backyard practice drills. Good luck

No, I did not chamber check/case gauge the ammo. I don't suspect the ammo because

a: When the problem happens, no ammo will feed. The odds of having 4-5 unchamberable bullets in a row are slim-to-none.

b: The bullet that failed to feed will chamber and fire after the gun is unjammed and the chamber cleaned out. I did this 3 times, using the problem bullet when I function tested.

If I'm wrong here and you see some other reason it may still be ammo, I'm listening...

Next time I have a problem, would it be a valid test to then case gauge the round that first exhibited the problem or could the case have it's dimensions changed by the jam?

A case gauge will be on my next parts order and I do plan to gauge before big matches. For this past weekend, I thought about borrowing a friend's but I simply didn't have time to case gauge the 1000-ish rounds we used.

To answer some other questions/comments:

Yeah, the TG is dirty. But with powder supplies like they are, I'm stuck with it for now as I have plenty. I tried E3 but can't get the SD down to any sane levels. Want to try VV320 some day. Also, the problems happened when the gun was clean (within the first 50 rounds), dirty, and again on day two after I cleaned it the previous night.

OAL of 1.175 was recommended by Henning. I think there are people here running lots longer, like 1.22.

Using a Hornady seating die (Hornady taper crimp too). It's got good reviews and is supposed to be one of the better ones, but I'm not adverse to trying something else if a heavier recoil spring and chamber checking doesn't help.

I'll give the silicone trick a try. Someone this weekend also mentioned they run a silicone rag through their mags after cleaning too.

Edited June 8, 2009 by DarthMuffin

[DarthMuffin]

I have noticed more on my open then limited but the gun prefers lube on lockup with the 10lb springs and if the gun gets dry it doesn't hit battery always.. Slide glide usually keep the gun running very well.

Leo

Am using slide-glide already, I probably should have mentioned that in the first post.

[CHA-LEE]

Double check for proper locking/unlocking of the barrel lugs in the slide. Also check for strange burrs on or around the "Kidney" cut in the base of the barrel for the locking pin. Then check the channel in the frame where the "kidney" cut travels.

From the failure mode you have described it sounds like there is either an obstruction in the chamber that is keeping the case from seating correctly, OR there is some other mechanical hang up in how the barrel to slide locks/unlocks.

The best thing you can do is test rack some virgin rounds through it and closely inspect the brass and bullet for funky marks or gouges. This will tell you if there is any strange scraping or binding of the round as it chambers.

You also have to chamber check every single round you shoot. It is fairly easy to get a bullet pushed in at an odd angle during the reloading process which will give the case a funky shape and it won't chamber correctly.

The only other thing you can do is shoot it until it fails again and then closely inspect the failure mode when it happens. If the slide is locked up out of battery but you can move the chambered round fairly easy by poking on it, you probably have some other Slide to Frame binding issue. For example, if the pin that goes through the frame and into the "kidney" cut in the barrel is super sloppy fitting you could be ending up in a strange timing event where the locking lugs are getting bound up on one another. If the round is wedged solidly into position then there is either a camber, extractor or breach face issue.

When it jams, how do you clear it normally? Do you drop the mag? Do you rerack the slide? Or do you just bang it forward to force it to go into battery?

[Mo Hepworth]

instead or running the 10 or 12,..try the factory 11.2lb spring.

[BritinUSA]

I wonder if you are getting some debris into the chamber somehow. What type of bullets are you using, are they plated, could something be stripping off the round and clogging up the chamber ? The fact that you could run a bore-snake through and it fixed the problem makes me wonder if it's not a gun issue but a debris issue.

[RiggerJJ]

never did figure out why mine was doing the same exact thing... its still sitting in the back of the safe.

jj

[photog]

When overall length gets too long for your particular pistol, these problems can happen, too.

[DarthMuffin]

I'll inspect the pistol a little more closely for burrs, etc. I haven't seen any yet. I like the idea of cycling virgin rounds through and seeing if they're marked up at all, I'll try that. I did a quick polish of the chamber and ramp when I got the gun.

I really like the suggestion that next time it happens to see if it's the slide or cartridge that's jammed, great tshooting suggestion.

I'll start chamber-checking match rounds too.

I have one idea that occurred to me this morning -- I'm shooting Montana Gold JHP bullets and I suppose it's possible the hollow point is catching on something (sort of a semi-nosedive that still manages to feed) and nicking off a bit of jacket around the HP edge. The easy test would be CMJ bullets, but I have tons of the JHP to use first so I'll see what I can find out.

Does anyone think 1.175 is too long of an OAL for an EAA Witness .40?

[BritinUSA]

If you are using JHP's then another question; Are you tumbling your loaded rounds ? If so, you may get small particles of media in the hollow point and they can dislodge into the barrel when the round goes up the feed ramp.

[LeoHallak]

I'll inspect the pistol a little more closely for burrs, etc. I haven't seen any yet. I like the idea of cycling virgin rounds through and seeing if they're marked up at all, I'll try that. I did a quick polish of the chamber and ramp when I got the gun.

I really like the suggestion that next time it happens to see if it's the slide or cartridge that's jammed, great tshooting suggestion.

I'll start chamber-checking match rounds too.

I have one idea that occurred to me this morning -- I'm shooting Montana Gold JHP bullets and I suppose it's possible the hollow point is catching on something (sort of a semi-nosedive that still manages to feed) and nicking off a bit of jacket around the HP edge. The easy test would be CMJ bullets, but I have tons of the JHP to use first so I'll see what I can find out.

Does anyone think 1.175 is too long of an OAL for an EAA Witness .40?

That length is just fine. I have probably put around 8k of Zero 180GR JHP and never had a problem. But I have never tried Montana Golds in my limited, But they could have a slightly different profile then Zero's. Like a lot of people have said. chamber check a few rounds and see what ones arent working and it should be easy to tell why.. crimp or sizing..

leo

[Ridgerunnr]

Sure sounds like Glocked brass to me..Had the SAME thing happen in my XD AND my Limited...I chamber check very last round. Last batch of 500 i loaded i had 5 in a row not make it..They wouldn't seat in the barrel unless i pushed em in and then had to pull hard to get em out...funny how only 5 did it and i got em one after another..before you drive yourself nuts chasin a problem all over the gun..chamber check every round..if the prob goes away you got it..if not then pursue other areas. No sense in trying a bunch at once to really never know what the exact problem was....my .02..

Lee undersized die(U-die)

185 gr

4.3 gr Solo 100

1.180

[ks-shooter]

I load the same length as ridgerunner; 1.18 with Montana Gold 180CMJ. I also use a U-die adn have no problems! The Tanfo is very forgiving. It will even eat the minor rounds left over from my previous production gun without a problem and they are loaded short...standard factory length.

In your first post you stated:

"The symptom is that it stops about 1/4", maybe a little less, from going into battery. The slide won't go forward. With great effort you can pull the slide back."

If it was a spring you should be able to push the slide forward into battery, but if the brass is bulged at the base then you cannot push it forward AND it does take GREAT EFFORT to pull the round out! This happened to me until I got the U-die and I still check all match ammo before shooting a match.

If it is media or dirt getting into the barrel I personally find it hard to believe it would happen to your four times in one training session....but s__t does happen. As someone above said, keep the round that would not feed and try it again later just to see if it fits in the barrel. That will be a sure check if it is the "glock" bulge!

[Pezco]

I had what appears to be the same problem happen to me. What I discovered was the HS6 powder I was using was too dirty causing the failure to battery towards the end of matches. I changed powders (to N320) no more problems.

I load my SV out to 1.22 with 180 gr. MTG, no problems.

[DarthMuffin]

A followup on this:

I chamber checked every reloaded round, and found two that failed out of the 700 I checked. One due to bulge, one due to a nick around the mouth.

I replaced the 10lb recoil spring with one of Henning's new 10.75lb springs.

Checked the gun over well for burrs, nicks, etc. and didn't find anything.

Hand cycled through a mag worth of rounds (same 1.175 OAL I've been using) and they fed fine and didn't have any markings on them like they were hitting anywhere.

Since then I've shot about 200 rounds in practice and 2 matches worth another 300 rounds.

This last match I got one fail to feed, but the failure was not like the previous ones and a tap/rack cleared it. I didn't have time to examine the failure then, it was probably mag related, possibly just dirty.

Other than that it's been flawless... so I hope it continues to work as well!

Thanks for the advice all.

[JoshF]

Darth, do you attribute this "fix" to any change or have you just paid closer attention to your reloads?

[DarthMuffin]

Honestly, I'm not sure. I don't suspect ammo problems because all the problem rounds rechambered and fired fine later on. It could be a combo of things that fixed it. I didn't have the luxury of time to test each fix one at a time (I didn't get to shoot for like a month... starting to get withdrawl symptoms).

If I had to lay the odds down:

50% chance the 10 to 10.75lb spring change helped.

20% chance chamber checking the ammo helped.

20% chance it was just random cr*p that got in the chamber causing the problems before, and none of this had any effect.

10% chance it's not fixed, I'm just lucky and haven't done a big enough sample size.

Edited July 24, 2009 by DarthMuffin

[CHA-LEE]

DarthMuffin> If this happens again leave it in the failed state and only drop the magazine to see if the slide snaps forward. I have seen issues where the slide ledge that strips the next round off of the top of the magazine gets sharp and digs into the case of the round below causing it to jam up. This gets more prominent when you have undersized brass where there is a change in case diameter below where the bullet is seated and above it. I had a few of these kind of jams on my gun but noticed that the slide ridge was very sharp and would promote the gouging into the cases so I rounded that corner a little and it has been feeding flawlessly since.