RO in the way - Interference?

[kgunz11]

Flex,

At a recent club match I went passed a target in a split in the COF because my mind was on the reload and at the end of the COF I was going to retreat 3 steps and get the target to finish. The RO and score keeper were in a position where I felt taking the shot was unsafe so I wasn't comfortable taking it. I took the 2 mikes and the FTE. The RO felt I should not have passed the target in the first place and I didn't get a reshoot. I was fine with it and beating myself up for forgetting my plan on the stage. Should it have been a reshoot? I am uploading the video now and will add it to this post momentarily.

[kgunz11]

[Singlestack]

Flex,

At a recent club match I went passed a target in a split in the COF because my mind was on the reload and at the end of the COF I was going to retreat 3 steps and get the target to finish. The RO and score keeper were in a position where I felt taking the shot was unsafe so I wasn't comfortable taking it. I took the 2 mikes and the FTE. The RO felt I should not have passed the target in the first place and I didn't get a reshoot. I was fine with it and beating myself up for forgetting my plan on the stage. Should it have been a reshoot? I am uploading the video now and will add it to this post momentarily.

No way its a reshoot. The only way its a reshoot is if you had thrown it in reverse and ran into the RO. The RO should not have been in the way of you backing up.

[Singlestack]

Ok, I just watched the video...

Thats just a shame Bro. Both of those guys were WAY out of position. There is no reason for the RO to have been so close and the score keeper was just wandering around with his HIA.

[kgunz11]

In defense of the RO, he was following me as the shooter. I didn't press the reshoot because I felt like a toadstool for skipping the target in the first place. It was not my intent to retreat to engage the target, but as a last minute resort it was an option, but the placement of the RO and score keeper made me feel uncomfortable about taking the shot.

[Nik Habicht]

Flex,

At a recent club match I went passed a target in a split in the COF because my mind was on the reload and at the end of the COF I was going to retreat 3 steps and get the target to finish. The RO and score keeper were in a position where I felt taking the shot was unsafe so I wasn't comfortable taking it. I took the 2 mikes and the FTE. The RO felt I should not have passed the target in the first place and I didn't get a reshoot. I was fine with it and beating myself up for forgetting my plan on the stage. Should it have been a reshoot? I am uploading the video now and will add it to this post momentarily.

Bobby,

not Flex, but in that situation, I probably would have yelled at them to move out of the way, engaged the target, and then asked the RO to consider offering a reshoot for RO interference. The fact that you passed the target (i.e. in RO opinion didn't shoot the stage correctly) doesn't enter into it --- you are solely responsible for executing your plan....

They should be staying out of the way/trailing you in such a manner that you can complete the course of fire....

Now to reverse the situation: Once you become an RO, when officiating, pay attention to shooter mistakes like that --- and be ready to retreat/stop advancing with the shooter if you think they're coming back. Also keep in mind that you may need to signal your scorekeeper or others to keep back, move in a different direction, or be prepared to issue the "Stop" command as a last resort.....

[JThompson]

He clearly had to stop for safety reasons... even though he blew his stage plan, the shooter should be able to go anywhere in the cof at any time. That was not possible because the both ROs would have been downrange. Also, the RO need to know the shooter may go back for a missed target. I've missed one and the RO hung back to make sure he wouldn't get "trapped"

Reshoot and change of shorts.

EDIT NIK beat me to it...

Edited May 6, 2009 by JThompson

[Nik Habicht]

In defense of the RO, he was following me as the shooter. I didn't press the reshoot because I felt like a toadstool for skipping the target in the first place. It was not my intent to retreat to engage the target, but as a last minute resort it was an option, but the placement of the RO and score keeper made me feel uncomfortable about taking the shot.

Assuming that you needed the target to your left --- the one next to the no-shoot, in front of where you ended up, I probably would have engaged that. From a stage construction point of view ---- I would have cut a rectangular RO only viewing port into that forward wall, labeled as such, added specifically into the stage description, and would have never stepped in front of the wall as the RO. In the alternative, I would have moved the front fault line forward, or the wall back to allow for a larger RO travel lane, so the RO couldn't get trapped by the barrels.....

[ima45dv8]

Yeah, that was an RO trap, and I think a reshoot should have been offered whether you asked for it or not.

[kgunz11]

Yes Nik, the target directly in front of me when I stopped was the target I skipped. I did not fire because I was unsure what direction the RO would follow me. If he came the same way I did the muzzle would have been a little too close to the face region, and I wasn't going to take any chances. The RO on the stage is a great guy, he just called it like he saw it. It was educational for me from both standpoints, as a shooter and as the guy holding the timer.

[ihatepickles]

I was fine with it and beating myself up for forgetting my plan on the stage. Should it have been a reshoot?

Absolutely it should've been a reshoot. It's not the RO's place to critique your stage plan and RO and scorekeeper were both clearly out of position. You screwed up under stress but the RO had all the time in the world to gather his thoughts and make the right call, which he clearly didn't.

The stage may not have had the best layout, it looked scary enough for the RO to slip in behind that barricade with you even without the retreat you attempted.

Edited May 6, 2009 by ihatepickles

[ima45dv8]

BTW, rewatching that video, was the young man who got in your way the scorekeeper? Doesn't look like it unless he had a Palm in his pocket for scoring.

Looks more like an enthusiastic shooter doping the stage (and yeah, I know who he is, but that isn't relevant to the discussion). He shouldn't have been anywhere near that close while you were making your attempt at the course of fire. Regardless of where the RO with the timer was, that guy was reason enough for a reshoot.

[Fireant]

Bobby,

I keep telling you to squad with me when you shoot there:) Oh wait a minute I had already bailed by then. The look on the RO's face alone tells me he knew you should have a reshoot. That solid wall should have been replaced with one of the see through orange mesh walls they have. That way the RO never has to go past the wall, but could still see the shooter. That was the palm in the score keepers left hand, not a shooter trying to get the dope on the stage.

Let me know when you are down again. I'll take my calm the hell down pill and maybe shoot the match.

[VegasOPM]

The COF is yours to use as you see fit as long as you follow the stage description and safety rules. If you wanted to advance while shooting all of the targets on the right and retreat while shooting the targets on the left- that is your option. Your plan (whether it changes mid stage or not) is not the concern of the RO. If the RO ends up in front of the shooter, the RO screwed up- plain and simple. He should have given you a re-shoot.

[get2now]

Reshoot for sure.

Gary

[ima45dv8]

That was the palm in the score keepers left hand, not a shooter trying to get the dope on the stage.

Thanks for claifying, Roger. That's good to know.

[Bear23]

At my club, i would've reshot you. you were clearly backing up, the ro would've been downrange of you. RO trap with that far wall blocking the view.

[Dan Hefta]

Where else was the RO to go? He has to keep his eye on the shooter and be close enough for the shots to register on the timer. The shooter screwed up his plan and was in a bad possition to re-engage the FTE target. Bad situation for the shooter and the RO, in this case I feel that the shooter made the mistake, not the RO. Reshoot?? I don't know.

[Supermoto]

I would say Reshoot, the RO was trapped in a bad spot, someone should have yelled STOP.

but RO needs to be able to keep up with the shooter no matter were he goes and be aware when a shooter leaves a target he may go back to it

We had a similiar situation of a RO not moving with the shooter. The RO is just off the screen when he turn back up range, but didn't run back with him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HzPbMS81pY...re=channel_page

Edited May 6, 2009 by Supermoto

[JThompson]

Where else was the RO to go? He has to keep his eye on the shooter and be close enough for the shots to register on the timer. The shooter screwed up his plan and was in a bad possition to re-engage the FTE target. Bad situation for the shooter and the RO, in this case I feel that the shooter made the mistake, not the RO. Reshoot?? I don't know.

That's why we say it was an RO trap... An RO should never have to be in that type of position. It's easy to put in a door there or a port for the RO to use. The shooter can do what he she need to do to get the hits. You can't say, "sorry you didn't shoot that right" and refuse a reshoot. If I had been there I would have most likely yelled STOP. This was quickly becoming unsafe. The shooter did the right thing by stopping himself before it got really bad. The RO could have stayed out to the side of the barricade that would have let him quickly move back up range, but that's not the issue. The issue is always safety... since this was going south fast and both ROs were going to get caught downrange, there is nothing to do but stop.

I refuse to ding a shooter because he/she didn't shoot the COF in a certain way. What's more I would have thanked the shooter for stopping if I didn't yell STOP, which I would have as soon as I saw them moving uprange and I was going to be caught downrange.

Shit happens, but we must remember we aren't in the gotcha game as ROs.

1)Design stages that don't leave and RO hung out.

2)RO needs to be aware of a missed target and that the shooter may go back to engage it.

3)If the shooter stops to keep your ass from getting hung out downrange... give the man a reshoot.

4)If you do find yourself getting caught downrange... yell your ass off for the shooter to STOP. You are there for everyone's safety including your own!

Edited May 6, 2009 by JThompson

[Nik Habicht]

Where else was the RO to go? He has to keep his eye on the shooter

Yes he does --- honestly the ROs who were on the first squad on this stage, should have called the match director or stage designer over to solve the safety problem with the forward position on the spot. It really benefits the match, when the first squad notices these things --- because they can be rectified without needing to toss the stage. (And yes, it would be better if match management caught it ahead of time, but that can be hard to pull off --- at our club we try to have three experienced stage designers/match directors look at every stage. Once in a while, all three of us miss something...)

and be close enough for the shots to register on the timer.

That need (to capture the final shot)doesn't trump either safety or competitive equity.....

The shooter screwed up his plan and was in a bad possition to re-engage the FTE target.

This is irrelevant --- the shooter has free run of the free fire zone between the audible start signal and "If Clear...."

Bad situation for the shooter and the RO, in this case I feel that the shooter made the mistake, not the RO. Reshoot?? I don't know.

The shooter may not have followed his plan -- that doesn't mean he's not entitled to a reshoot. I am sure I know the right call in this situation.....

[Flexmoney]

He is an example of "How to Lose and RO" due to stage design. This was on staff day at a major match, and was it was fixed after that.

And, here is an example of the shooter going back to make-up a mistake. It is freestyle folks.

I just noticed...same RO in both videos. lol. Notice that Mark is experienced enough to give the shooter some room to work. In both cases, the shooter kept moving and shot a make-up shot...a bit out of the ordinary, perhaps.

[ima45dv8]

The shooter did the right thing by stopping himself before it got really bad.

I'm glad you mentioned that, JT. It reminded me that I forgot to give props to Bobby for stopping the decline of the situation before it got any worse.

Of all the matches I've shot (and seen on YouTube) I haven't seen a single one worth someone getting hurt.

Good job, Bobby.

[JThompson]

He is an example of "How to Lose and RO" due to stage design. This was on staff day at a major match, and was it was fixed after that.

And, here is an example of the shooter going back to make-up a mistake. It is freestyle folks.

I just noticed...same RO in both videos. lol. Notice that Mark is experienced enough to give the shooter some room to work. In both cases, the shooter kept moving and shot a make-up shot...a bit out of the ordinary, perhaps.

Is that first RO Tom D?

Edited May 6, 2009 by JThompson

[boz1911]

I'll pile on, RO trap. Even if he knew you skipped the target there wasn't any place for him to be safely. No need for the scorekeeper to be that close until he hears "range is clear".

Had I been the RO, I would have thanked you for not continueing to shoot, then told you to let me know when you're ready for your reshoot.

Good course management though would have eliminated all these issues..