Single Stack Classic

[RIIID]

Not to leave Kippi out, not a video just a few stills.

[Gary1911A1]

BJ talks about shooting minor on his blog

http://bjnorris.wordpress.com/

Thanks, Interesting read.

[99gski]

Not to leave Kippi out, not a video just a few stills.

Great photos!

Julie

[hockeyfighter25]

In regards to the major/minor, Was the 10 round capacity a significant advantage on stage 5, or did B.J. just smoke the stage?

Stage: 5 Crackerjack

Place Name No. Class Division Pts Pen Time Hit Fact Stg Pts Stg %

1 Norris, B. J. 151 U Single Stack 54 0 6.60 8.1818 60.0000 100.00%

2 Player, Shane 158 U Single Stack 54 0 7.44 7.2581 53.2262 88.71%

3 Voigt, Michael 251 M Single Stack 54 0 7.73 6.9858 51.2293 85.38%

4 Koenig, Doug 134 M Single Stack 57 0 8.31 6.8592 50.3009 83.83%

5 Fuson, Eric 212 M Single Stack 59 0 8.71 6.7738 49.6746 82.79%

Also when designing stages for a SS only matches, Do the stage designers think about 8 vs. 10 round capacity? For example do the designers try to avoid 10, 11, 18, 19, 20, etc. round stages.

[Matt Cheely]

The stages were setup with 8 rounds in mind, but there were still at least 3 stages where 10 round minor was a clear advantage.

[jripper]

On the minor vs. major debate. My memory is a little foggy, but what I remember goes something like this:

Several years back, prior to it being a nationals, Robbie was giving a half day class for the first however many shooters that signed up to shoot. Anyway, during the class, someone asked Robbie about major/minor in single stack. He had it figured out to a percentage. I don't know the exact numbers, but it was something like 5% faster shooting minor, but 10% lower points, and that it did not factor out for him.

In years past, the extra rounds in the gun would have been beneficial for misses but this year, there was a lot less shoot 8 and move stages, so it was not quite as much of an advantage. This is why .40's became popular in the past: Old rules were .40 major with 9 rounds in the gun. Gave 1 extra round for mistakes.

I can diffenitely see cost advantage, 9mm vs. 45. 9 compared to .40 reduces the cost advantage a little.

Lower recoil is a good thing, but I doubt that is a major deciding factor for Masters and GMs, and a lot of other experienced shooters.

I've tried minor at some club matches, and altough it is fun, I'm not an accurate enough shooter to find an advantage over major.

But, for me, experimenting with different guns, calibers and gear is half of the fun

[lppd4]

Great video's, is there other videos available? I would like to see every stage, maybe from a hat cam. Of course the super squad shooting the match would be OK also

[99gski]

Great video's, is there other videos available? I would like to see every stage, maybe from a hat cam. Of course the super squad shooting the match would be OK also

I know Kippi got some good coverage of Rob so you might want to check Rob's YouTube site and subscribe.

Julie

[JThompson]

Great video's, is there other videos available? I would like to see every stage, maybe from a hat cam. Of course the super squad shooting the match would be OK also

I know Kippi got some good coverage of Rob so you might want to check Rob's YouTube site and subscribe.

Julie

Thanks Julie... also thank for the ladies vids.

[Mr Player]

In regards to the major/minor, Was the 10 round capacity a significant advantage on stage 5, or did B.J. just smoke the stage?

Stage: 5 Crackerjack

Place Name No. Class Division Pts Pen Time Hit Fact Stg Pts Stg %

1 Norris, B. J. 151 U Single Stack 54 0 6.60 8.1818 60.0000 100.00%

2 Player, Shane 158 U Single Stack 54 0 7.44 7.2581 53.2262 88.71%

3 Voigt, Michael 251 M Single Stack 54 0 7.73 6.9858 51.2293 85.38%

4 Koenig, Doug 134 M Single Stack 57 0 8.31 6.8592 50.3009 83.83%

5 Fuson, Eric 212 M Single Stack 59 0 8.71 6.7738 49.6746 82.79%

Also when designing stages for a SS only matches, Do the stage designers think about 8 vs. 10 round capacity? For example do the designers try to avoid 10, 11, 18, 19, 20, etc. round stages.

BJ just smoked that stage. It was a 12 rd stage with pleanty of time for the reload.

[Franklin D Wolverton]

In regards to the major/minor, Was the 10 round capacity a significant advantage on stage 5, or did B.J. just smoke the stage?

Stage: 5 Crackerjack

Place Name No. Class Division Pts Pen Time Hit Fact Stg Pts Stg %

1 Norris, B. J. 151 U Single Stack 54 0 6.60 8.1818 60.0000 100.00%

2 Player, Shane 158 U Single Stack 54 0 7.44 7.2581 53.2262 88.71%

3 Voigt, Michael 251 M Single Stack 54 0 7.73 6.9858 51.2293 85.38%

4 Koenig, Doug 134 M Single Stack 57 0 8.31 6.8592 50.3009 83.83%

5 Fuson, Eric 212 M Single Stack 59 0 8.71 6.7738 49.6746 82.79%

Also when designing stages for a SS only matches, Do the stage designers think about 8 vs. 10 round capacity? For example do the designers try to avoid 10, 11, 18, 19, 20, etc. round stages.

I was one of the RO's on this stage. He just smoked it. The stage had a door sized port in the middle of a wall, with 4 targets about 50 feet down range (the outside two of which had hardcover), and one target on each side of the wall about 5 feet downrange. The shooting area went from 1 foot from the ends of the wall, and three feet back.

12 rounds needed... most people shot the 4 in the middle, reloaded, and shot the 2 on the sides.

A few people shot one of the ones on the outside first... which, unless they were shooting minor, had then doing a static reload.

Major and Minor both had to do a reload on this stage.

Frank

[Supershooter]

In regards to the major/minor, Was the 10 round capacity a significant advantage on stage 5, or did B.J. just smoke the stage?

Stage: 5 Crackerjack

Place Name No. Class Division Pts Pen Time Hit Fact Stg Pts Stg %

1 Norris, B. J. 151 U Single Stack 54 0 6.60 8.1818 60.0000 100.00%

2 Player, Shane 158 U Single Stack 54 0 7.44 7.2581 53.2262 88.71%

3 Voigt, Michael 251 M Single Stack 54 0 7.73 6.9858 51.2293 85.38%

4 Koenig, Doug 134 M Single Stack 57 0 8.31 6.8592 50.3009 83.83%

5 Fuson, Eric 212 M Single Stack 59 0 8.71 6.7738 49.6746 82.79%

Also when designing stages for a SS only matches, Do the stage designers think about 8 vs. 10 round capacity? For example do the designers try to avoid 10, 11, 18, 19, 20, etc. round stages.

I try to design stages with 8 round capacity in mind. But sometimes minor will have an advantage on where they reload. On an all steel stage like we have every year of course you can miss faster with a minor!

[Rln_21]

At least I got a Chinese knock off of a Surefire flashlight in my goodie bag. Fun match.

See flashlight here

http://www.amazon.com/Fenix-TK10-Tactical-...5193&sr=1-1

I am pretty sure that the Fenix will match or easily beat any similar Surefire performance for around half the price. I don't know if its Chinese but I would take the Fenix over a Surefire any day...

Man, 15 years in a row is pretty damn incredible

Interesting reading on the minor vs major info...

Edited May 10, 2009 by Rln_21

[zhunter]

Jeez...how 'bout we take the top 10 or so this year and promote them to GM !!?

Flex

You and I have had a long running battle about the SS High Hit Factors in the Classification system, MAYBE now you might be noticing that things are VERY messed up. You can't base Single Stack on the HHF's of Limited-10, it is a totally different animal!!!

Of course I have pointed this out MANY times previously!!!!!!!!!!

OF course your quote above is alluding to the fact that there are VERY few SS GM's, certainly NOT representative or reality.

It is time for this to be fixed!!!!!

[zhunter]

Congrats to Robbie, you are simply amazing!

[Matt Cheely]

Most of the top 10 aren't GM's not because of the HHF, but because we don't shoot SS that much...

[zhunter]

Most of the top 10 aren't GM's not because of the HHF, but because we don't shoot SS that much...

It is now what, three years into it? At this time I would think that the GM's in other divisions would have shot enough classifiers/big matches to make it to GM in SS.

And..... With the line of thinking that SS and L-10 are the same, then it should NOT matter should it?

[ihatepickles]

Most of the top 10 aren't GM's not because of the HHF, but because we don't shoot SS that much...

It is now what, three years into it? At this time I would think that the GM's in other divisions would have shot enough classifiers/big matches to make it to GM in SS.

Respectfully, aren't the non-GM stats of the top 10 SS Classic finishers enough evidence to convince you that this isn't the case? If they don't want to shoot enough SSD to top out their classification, I don't see how it's anyone's business but their own.

Just my $0.02.

Edited May 10, 2009 by ihatepickles

[zhunter]

GM Ted Puente, M class, he has shot 9 classifiers

GM Angus Hobnell M Class, he has shot 11

GM Taran Butler M Class, 11

GM Matt Cheely, M Class, 11

GM Michael Voight, M Class, 9

Those are just a few. I am off to work, but maybe someone has more time, too at these same shooters and see if there last 10 Classifiers in their GM Divisions made GM.

I am not buying it, sorry

[ihatepickles]

...but maybe someone has more time, too at these same shooters and see if there last 10 Classifiers in their GM Divisions made GM.

I am not buying it, sorry

I know you put a lot of time and effort into Single Stack so here's some leg work. There's a weird anomaly I didn't expect to see, the SSD examples here show a lot more crash and burn attempts than the other divisions, I think that's interesting.

Ted Puente (GM Limited, GM Limited 10, M Single Stack)

Limited (10 most recent) - 5 GM's, 4 M's, 1 A

Limited 10 (10 most recent) - 6 GM's, 4 M's

Single Stack (9 most recent) - 1 GM, 6 M's, 2 A's

Angus Hobdell (GM Open, GM Limited, Production, M Single Stack)

Open (10 most recent) - 1 GM, 4 M's, 2 A's, 1 B, 2 C's

Limited (8 most recent) - 3 GM's, 3 M's, 2 A's

Production (10 most recent) - 6 GM's, 4 M's

Single Stack (10 most recent) - 2 GM's, 3 M's, 3 A's, 1 B, 1 C

Taran Butler (GM Open, GM Limited, GM Limited 10, GM Production, M Single Stack)

Open (10 most recent) - 1 GM's, 5 M's, 3 A's, 1 C

Limited (10 most recent) - 5 GM's, 4 M's, 1 B

Limited 10 (10 most recent) - 3 GM's, 6 M's, 1 A

Production (10 most recent) - 7 GM's, 2 M's

Single Stack (10 most recent) - 0 GM's, 8 M's, 1 C, 1 D

Matt Cheely (GM Limited, GM Limited 10, GM Production, M Singlestack)

Limited (10 most recent) - 3 GM's, 5 M's, 1 B, 1 D

Limited 10 (10 most recent) - 5 GM's, 1 M, 2 B's, 2 C's

Production (10 most recent) - 4 GM's, 1 M, 1 A, 3 B's, 1 C

Single Stack (10 most recent) - 1 GM, 3 M's, 2 A's, 1 B, 2 C's, 1 D

Michael Voigt (GM Open, GM Limited, M Single Stack)

Open (10 most recent) - 3 GM's, 3 M's, 3 A's, 1 C

Limited (10 most recent) - 4 GM's, 4 M's, 1 A, 1 B

Single Stack (10 most recent) - 1 GM, 3 M's, 4 A's, 1 B

[zhunter]

...but maybe someone has more time, too at these same shooters and see if there last 10 Classifiers in their GM Divisions made GM.

I am not buying it, sorry

I know you put a lot of time and effort into Single Stack so here's some leg work. There's a weird anomaly I didn't expect to see, the SSD examples here show a lot more crash and burn attempts than the other divisions, I think that's interesting.

Ted Puente (GM Limited, GM Limited 10, M Single Stack)

Limited (10 most recent) - 5 GM's, 4 M's, 1 A

Limited 10 (10 most recent) - 6 GM's, 4 M's

Single Stack (9 most recent) - 1 GM, 6 M's, 2 A's

Angus Hobdell (GM Open, GM Limited, Production, M Single Stack)

Open (10 most recent) - 1 GM, 4 M's, 2 A's, 1 B, 2 C's

Limited (8 most recent) - 3 GM's, 3 M's, 2 A's

Production (10 most recent) - 6 GM's, 4 M's

Single Stack (10 most recent) - 2 GM's, 3 M's, 3 A's, 1 B, 1 C

Taran Butler (GM Open, GM Limited, GM Limited 10, GM Production, M Single Stack)

Open (10 most recent) - 1 GM's, 5 M's, 3 A's, 1 C

Limited (10 most recent) - 5 GM's, 4 M's, 1 B

Limited 10 (10 most recent) - 3 GM's, 6 M's, 1 A

Production (10 most recent) - 7 GM's, 2 M's

Single Stack (10 most recent) - 0 GM's, 8 M's, 1 C, 1 D

Matt Cheely (GM Limited, GM Limited 10, GM Production, M Singlestack)

Limited (10 most recent) - 3 GM's, 5 M's, 1 B, 1 D

Limited 10 (10 most recent) - 5 GM's, 1 M, 2 B's, 2 C's

Production (10 most recent) - 4 GM's, 1 M, 1 A, 3 B's, 1 C

Single Stack (10 most recent) - 1 GM, 3 M's, 2 A's, 1 B, 2 C's, 1 D

Michael Voigt (GM Open, GM Limited, M Single Stack)

Open (10 most recent) - 3 GM's, 3 M's, 3 A's, 1 C

Limited (10 most recent) - 4 GM's, 4 M's, 1 A, 1 B

Single Stack (10 most recent) - 1 GM, 3 M's, 4 A's, 1 B

That is because SS is the most difficult division to shoot for several reasons:

1) only 8 rounds

2) smaller hole for reloading.

Say what you want, but SS and L-10 are NOT the same

[CSEMARTIN]

Say what you want, but SS and L-10 are NOT the same

I couldn't agree more.

[jasmap]

...but maybe someone has more time, too at these same shooters and see if there last 10 Classifiers in their GM Divisions made GM.

I am not buying it, sorry

I know you put a lot of time and effort into Single Stack so here's some leg work. There's a weird anomaly I didn't expect to see, the SSD examples here show a lot more crash and burn attempts than the other divisions, I think that's interesting.

Ted Puente (GM Limited, GM Limited 10, M Single Stack)

Limited (10 most recent) - 5 GM's, 4 M's, 1 A

Limited 10 (10 most recent) - 6 GM's, 4 M's

Single Stack (9 most recent) - 1 GM, 6 M's, 2 A's

Angus Hobdell (GM Open, GM Limited, Production, M Single Stack)

Open (10 most recent) - 1 GM, 4 M's, 2 A's, 1 B, 2 C's

Limited (8 most recent) - 3 GM's, 3 M's, 2 A's

Production (10 most recent) - 6 GM's, 4 M's

Single Stack (10 most recent) - 2 GM's, 3 M's, 3 A's, 1 B, 1 C

Taran Butler (GM Open, GM Limited, GM Limited 10, GM Production, M Single Stack)

Open (10 most recent) - 1 GM's, 5 M's, 3 A's, 1 C

Limited (10 most recent) - 5 GM's, 4 M's, 1 B

Limited 10 (10 most recent) - 3 GM's, 6 M's, 1 A

Production (10 most recent) - 7 GM's, 2 M's

Single Stack (10 most recent) - 0 GM's, 8 M's, 1 C, 1 D

Matt Cheely (GM Limited, GM Limited 10, GM Production, M Singlestack)

Limited (10 most recent) - 3 GM's, 5 M's, 1 B, 1 D

Limited 10 (10 most recent) - 5 GM's, 1 M, 2 B's, 2 C's

Production (10 most recent) - 4 GM's, 1 M, 1 A, 3 B's, 1 C

Single Stack (10 most recent) - 1 GM, 3 M's, 2 A's, 1 B, 2 C's, 1 D

Michael Voigt (GM Open, GM Limited, M Single Stack)

Open (10 most recent) - 3 GM's, 3 M's, 3 A's, 1 C

Limited (10 most recent) - 4 GM's, 4 M's, 1 A, 1 B

Single Stack (10 most recent) - 1 GM, 3 M's, 4 A's, 1 B

That is because SS is the most difficult division to shoot for several reasons:

1) only 8 rounds

2) smaller hole for reloading.

Say what you want, but SS and L-10 are NOT the same

I'm not killing myself over this and I rarely think about it but I do agree with you that SSD & L10 are 2 different animals.

[RIIID]

Z,

I guess your right on the HHF, back in the day when I got my GM card in Limited I was shooting my SS rig and the last couple classifiers were done with my Production rig.

On average the shooters who shoot the SSC only shoot SS for a couple a months a year before the match. After that they go back to their preferred division. SSD is in it's infancy we didn't have instant GM's in the first two years of the then new divisions Production, L10, and Revo. The HHF came from Ltd for two of those. The classifiers are neutral for Ltd, Pro, SSD, and L10. Practice, Practice, Practice, and more level III SSD matches and it will work itself out.

Rich

[Gary1911A1]

A few years ago Michael Voigt hinted he's like SS to replace Limited10 or at least that was what I interpreted what he was saying, but nothing seem to become of it. I guess I'm just an old guy who started shooting IPSC before there was a USPSA when we all shot SS except for a few shooters.