Scariest moment in my life

[cybrosh]

I later check the gun and the hammer follows through when releasing the slide from the slide stop.

Since firing pin intertia is ruled out...it seems likely that upon impact, the hammer followed through, the slide wanting to go backwards simply tore the safety out if it's place, sending it a few yards away as described.

[davecutts]

Safariland holsters are not crap, the Swede admitted the gun was not in the holster correctly. I've dropped an unloaded pistol out a model 011, and my Ghost; it happened with the 011 during a walk threw with a prone position. I hopped up with a little too much force and which popped the pistol out of the holster. The pistol was a Para and I felt the 011 never really hung on to the traditional 1911 trigger guard really well. I dropped my new Bedel (STI) open gun out of Ghost also on a walk threw. I was running full speed into a position stopped violently and the pistol popped out, no the holster was not locked at the time, but you can bet I've locked it every time since. I just got a Safariland 013 which has a lock and I'm excited to switch. Unlike the ghost (first gen with the pin) where the lock lever seems like it could unlock on its own, the 013 lock has a positive lock and unlock, and when the lock is on nothing is getting the pistol out of the holster. CR speed ... I have a buddy who can draw the gun with the holster locked, it breaks the lever thingy you push down to lock the holster.

So I guess I'm saying none of them are perfect.

[Singlestack]

Different scenario same result........I was RO'ng a guy once, he got to the last round to be fired on a stage and got a bulged 40 stuck in his gun.........Long story short, I tried the old "hold the slide and hit the grip" trick........It threw the firing pin into the primer, and blew lots of brass into my hand and into my chest..........It can happen, and I cringe evertime I see someone do it........That was the last time I tried to "help" someone

This sounds like ejector fire. The round became unstuck, slipped off the extractor and was jammed into the ejector. I have seen it happen. There is no way you can hit the grip hard enough with your hand to cause the firing pin to ignite the primer.

[ipscjoe]

Different scenario same result........I was RO'ng a guy once, he got to the last round to be fired on a stage and got a bulged 40 stuck in his gun.........Long story short, I tried the old "hold the slide and hit the grip" trick........It threw the firing pin into the primer, and blew lots of brass into my hand and into my chest..........It can happen, and I cringe evertime I see someone do it........That was the last time I tried to "help" someone

This sounds like ejector fire. The round became unstuck, slipped off the extractor and was jammed into the ejector. I have seen it happen. There is no way you can hit the grip hard enough with your hand to cause the firing pin to ignite the primer.

I respectufully disagree,...The round never became unstuck (untill it blew up).....it was nearly fully chambered, with the extractor fully locked into the brass's extactor cut.....

[ipscjoe]

I later check the gun and the hammer follows through when releasing the slide from the slide stop.

Since firing pin intertia is ruled out...it seems likely that upon impact, the hammer followed through, the slide wanting to go backwards simply tore the safety out if it's place, sending it a few yards away as described.

If it landed flat, that would be it IMO.

[Mapzter]

Safariland race holsters all suck. I used one back in the day (007), but the 011 and 012 are just a DQ/accident waiting to happen. Even with the tension set high a nudge on the gun in the wrong direction will send the gun flying. Why do you see almost everyone with a 012 use a strap around the holster and gun? Because they don't hold the gun securely and they know it. Get a Ghost or a Ribas or a Limcat, all of which have a positive lock that you can't pull through or knock the gun through.

I couldn't agree more. After dropping my 2011 from a Safariland 012 with tension set to max, several times, I bought a Ribas. No dropped guns since.

[cybrosh]

I've been using Ribas for over 3 years, and brought quite a few for fellow competitors. I was DQ'ed once for dropping the gun while running(holster's lock was on position 1 while the tension screw was light-that's why you have position 2! and even 3), and have seen others dropping the gun, mostly while holstering. You need to get the setup right and be mindful when holstering.

I've seen guns flying out of Ghosts and jumping from Cr-Speeds.

No holster on the market is fool proof, though I think G.Ribas is the best one out there.

Edited April 22, 2009 by cybrosh

[G-ManBart]

Safariland holsters are not crap, the Swede admitted the gun was not in the holster correctly. I've dropped an unloaded pistol out a model 011, and my Ghost; it happened with the 011 during a walk threw with a prone position. I hopped up with a little too much force and which popped the pistol out of the holster. The pistol was a Para and I felt the 011 never really hung on to the traditional 1911 trigger guard really well. I dropped my new Bedel (STI) open gun out of Ghost also on a walk threw. I was running full speed into a position stopped violently and the pistol popped out, no the holster was not locked at the time, but you can bet I've locked it every time since. I just got a Safariland 013 which has a lock and I'm excited to switch. Unlike the ghost (first gen with the pin) where the lock lever seems like it could unlock on its own, the 013 lock has a positive lock and unlock, and when the lock is on nothing is getting the pistol out of the holster. CR speed ... I have a buddy who can draw the gun with the holster locked, it breaks the lever thingy you push down to lock the holster.

So I guess I'm saying none of them are perfect.

Okay, the Safariland 011 and 012 are crap I haven't handled a 013 so I won't include that. I use a Safariland for my SS now and a 007 way back when, so it's not like I dislike them as a company. I bought a 012 based upon my prior experience with Safariland and it lasted one match. Even with the tension maxed it's still possible to pop the gun out pretty easily and there's no way to make it more secure short of a strap which is ridiculous. I have yet to see a gun fall out of a locked Ribas, Ghost or Limcat. Walking around with any of those three unlocked is just a bad idea even though with the Ribas if the tension is set high enough it takes one heck of a pop to get the gun to come out. Still, I'd make changes to the Ribas if I were king so I agree none are perfect.

[gino_aki]

Safariland race holsters all suck. I used one back in the day (007), but the 011 and 012 are just a DQ/accident waiting to happen. Even with the tension set high a nudge on the gun in the wrong direction will send the gun flying. Why do you see almost everyone with a 012 use a strap around the holster and gun? Because they don't hold the gun securely and they know it. Get a Ghost or a Ribas or a Limcat, all of which have a positive lock that you can't pull through or knock the gun through.

I couldn't agree more. After dropping my 2011 from a Safariland 012 with tension set to max, several times, I bought a Ribas. No dropped guns since.

I always wondered when I got it why my 012 just didn't seem as secure as my old 010...which wasn't that secure either...'til I figured out the tension screw was bearing on the aluminum holster shell instead of the plastic "ears" of the lock body. Once I opened up the hole to let the tension screw knob's body to pass through the aluminum side and bear on the ear, well, when it's tight I can't yank hard enough to get it out. Just a FYI possible fix for those having 012 problems.

By the way I'm using a Ribas now for everything...no worries about muzzle cup/plug adjustments when I want to switch between my Limited and Open guns.

And THANK GOD, you're okay Freddie...I'm sure the lesson of going "cold" whenever you're not actually shooting won't be lost on you.

Edited April 24, 2009 by gino_aki

[Freddie the Swede]

Thanks to all who answered.

Trigger parts

I have now ordered new trigger parts for my gun as the "safe" parts that I have now is not up to par weight wise.

Although they are safe and thats the main concern right now.

I have ordered a Koenig hammer. Extreme Engineering sear, SVI disconnector and SVI sear spring.

A very nice gentleman here "TrueDoubletaper" suggested these parts and as he is a gunsmith I'll trust him.

Holster

Shot a match this sunday and used my old Safariland 008 holster and found it much safer and not any slower than my 011.

Talked to a friend in Arizona about the new Safarlind 013 holster that is out now. He is going to check it out and maybe I'll get one.

It's supposed to have a new lock that will keep the gun in postition contrary to the 011 and 012 holsters. It also has a muzzle cup that prevents any pushing to the muzzle when sitting down.

He works at Safariland so I will get inside info and hopefully a inside price

Anyway, I've learned a lesson here and will NOT practice with a hot gun anymore.

As bad luck can hit you anytime I will not risk it.

Just think of it, What's the odds that you first drop the gun, then when the gun hits the ground the safety flies off, then the hammer falls AND the half cock does not catch the hammer and a shot goes off!!! Please remember that the safety was ON when this happend and that I had checked the trigger mechanism less than 1 month before....

Thanks to all.

//Fredrik

Safariland race holsters all suck. I used one back in the day (007), but the 011 and 012 are just a DQ/accident waiting to happen. Even with the tension set high a nudge on the gun in the wrong direction will send the gun flying. Why do you see almost everyone with a 012 use a strap around the holster and gun? Because they don't hold the gun securely and they know it. Get a Ghost or a Ribas or a Limcat, all of which have a positive lock that you can't pull through or knock the gun through.

I couldn't agree more. After dropping my 2011 from a Safariland 012 with tension set to max, several times, I bought a Ribas. No dropped guns since.

I always wondered when I got it why my 012 just didn't seem as secure as my old 010...which wasn't that secure either...'til I figured out the tension screw was bearing on the aluminum holster shell instead of the plastic "ears" of the lock body. Once I opened up the hole to let the tension screw knob's body to pass through the aluminum side and bear on the ear, well, when it's tight I can't yank hard enough to get it out. Just a FYI possible fix for those having 012 problems.

By the way I'm using a Ribas now for everything...no worries about muzzle cup/plug adjustments when I want to switch between my Limited and Open guns.

And THANK GOD, you're okay Freddie...I'm sure the lesson of going "cold" whenever you're not actually shooting won't be lost on you.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Freddie the Swede

[Freddie the Swede]

I've been thinking a bit regarding the weak hit on the primer.

Could it be that it was s slow ignition??

When did my military service we where told that if we had a strike on the round but no bang. We should wait a couple of second before opening the gun as the primer could ignite the round after several seconds.

It could have been such a slow ignition as the sound of the gun going of infront of me sound a bit odd.

On the other I've never had a open gun fired in front of me before, so who knows.

It's was scary and I have learned a lesson. Have a safe holster and check the lock every time you are about to move with a loaded gun.

Be careful out there, I will be.

Thanks for listening

//Fredrik

Edited April 29, 2009 by Freddie the Swede

[Ross Carter]

First you had an unsafe trigger, falling to half cock never acceptable. It's already been covered but the original tests proved that a 1911 would need to drop 10 feet or more directly on the muzzle to fire and that was before the extra strength firing pin springs we use now.

My theory is that as the pistol tumbled out of your holster the left side of the muzzle or mag well or both hit the concrete causing the thumb safety to move out enough to allow the hammer to fall which you stated would happen dropping the slide. I bet it would fall if you banged the pistol against something also. The gun goes off when it hits and the safety is flung the rest of the way. The slide might have been knocked slightly out of battery causing the light hit or some other cause.

Glad no one was hurt lesson learned. Never ever depend on the half cock notch to catch the hammer, make sure your trigger job is good enough not allow the hammer to fall. This is not just so you don't go full auto or have to rack the slide, more importantly it's for incidents like this.

[Rob Boudrie]

It definitely sounds like firing pin inertia - no need for hammer follow to have occurred.

It doesn't take much of a whack to set off a traditional design 1911 if you drop it onto a hard surface. Most of the folks who tell you it "can't happen", "requires a drop from a great height" or "can't happen unless it hits the ground muzzle first" are basing their conclusion on what they want the result to be, not rigorous lab testing (which tends to show results to the contrary).

I consider a 1911 without a firing pin block safety to be unacceptable as a carry gun for this reason - but they're great for matches and recreational shooting.

[G-ManBart]

It definitely sounds like firing pin inertia - no need for hammer follow to have occurred.

It doesn't take much of a whack to set off a traditional design 1911 if you drop it onto a hard surface. Most of the folks who tell you it "can't happen", "requires a drop from a great height" or "can't happen unless it hits the ground muzzle first" are basing their conclusion on what they want the result to be, not rigorous lab testing (which tends to show results to the contrary).

I consider a 1911 without a firing pin block safety to be unacceptable as a carry gun for this reason - but they're great for matches and recreational shooting.

You've seen lab results that show dropping a 1911 flat on it's side, or nearly so, would impart enough inertia to hit the primer? I don't see how that's possible from a physics standpoint. R,

[alcornl]

I just want to add to the sentiment against 012 holsters. I've been using 2, one for limited and one for open for 7 years, since they first came out. Have never had a dropped gun or one fall out when siting down or moving around. I do not run with a gun on my side ever. I have not seen a holster out there that I would run around with, except maybe a police duty holster. If an 012 is setup properly I do not see how it can come out except for running, because the gun is designed to come straight up and out. I have had one come from the factory with the washer for the tensioner in the wrong place so that it would not put the pressure on the trigger guard, but onto the metal frame.

As an RO, I see alot of is people trying to be fast, cute or what ever and loading and making ready and then slamming the gun into the holster. Why all of the need for speed when holstering a weapon. I take extreme caution and time loading my gun, pushing the holster away from my body with my hip, so that the muzzle does not point at my foot or leg, and then slowly and carefully place the muzzle in first, while slowly pushing the trigger guard into the keeper and feeling a positive click, with my finger positively placed straight forward against the frame. After watching a friend shoot himself in the leg with a xd, by having a loose fitting shirt and jamming the gun into the holster at high speed, pulling the trigger with the shirt, I can not ever see a need for this practice. Even before I witnessed this, I took care and caution holstering gun, especially loaded with jacketed hollow points at 1400FPS. Can you say no foot left to even try to fix.

The other thing I use taking my time, to get ready, is to calm myself and get the jitters out, and feel confident in my guns safety and position with my hand.

I saw a competitor arguing with an RO a while back, as he holstered his open gun with the safety off, and with his hand still on the grip, put the safety on while in the holster. The competitor argued this was completely legal since his hand did not leave the gun, fearing a DQ. I hope he realized in his mind of how unsafe this is. I've seen what a minor load round nose 40 does to someone's leg. I do not want to ever see a major JHP does.

[G-ManBart]

I have not seen a holster out there that I would run around with, except maybe a police duty holster. If an 012 is setup properly I do not see how it can come out except for running, because the gun is designed to come straight up and out.

You can run all day long with a locked Ribas. The lock is as secure as that on any police duty holster....you'd have to break the trigger guard off the gun before it would come out. Even with it unlocked it's unlikely the gun would come out short of your leg hitting the muzzle while moving fast...note the video I linked above...that's being shaken pretty darn hard and it doesn't budge.

All it would take to bump a gun out of a properly setup 012 is for someone/something to hit the magwell in an upward direction (maybe someone standing up from picking up mags after another shooter?) and the gun is going to come out. I had one for a couple of months so I'm not saying this as a theory....it can happen. Our club president has used a 012 and got DQ'd at the first stage of the Nationals in 2007 (I believe) because he gun came out of a 012 from a seated start. Everyone I know that uses one puts a strap around the holster body and gun to make sure that doesn't happen. The lock from the new 013 can be retrofit and it's a 100% improvement. R,

[alcornl]

I won't argue that it is possible, just that the way my 012's are setup I can beat the magwell all day long and it won't come out except for straight up with a para and sti platform. But my main point is that I do not see why people need to run with a gun in a race holster. If you really need to practice running through every stage before you shoot it, I would definitely take the advise of the previous poster and bag the gun. Secondly, having the weight of the gun in your holster while running could throw off you balance. Seated starts could bump the gun out of any holster if you are starting with the lock disengaged, as most competitors do with locked holsters. The lockable speedsec holster that you pull off when drawing with your fingers could be a good solution to that problem as well. I bought one for my father a couple of years ago and he seemed to like it for an STI edge.

I guess my point is that i treat any loaded gun like a basket of eggs. Seated starts as well. If taking my time to safely get up from the seat adds a second to keep from putting holes in me, then so be it.

Edited May 17, 2009 by alcornl

[G-ManBart]

I won't argue that it is possible, just that the way my 012's are setup I can beat the magwell all day long and it won't come out except for straight up with a para and sti platform. But my main point is that I do not see why people need to run with a gun in a race holster. If you really need to practice running through every stage before you shoot it, I would definitely take the advise of the previous poster and bag the gun. Secondly, having the weight of the gun in your holster while running could throw off you balance. Seated starts could bump the gun out of any holster if you are starting with the lock disengaged, as most competitors do with locked holsters. The lockable speedsec holster that you pull off when drawing with your fingers could be a good solution to that problem as well. I bought one for my father a couple of years ago and he seemed to like it for an STI edge.

I guess my point is that i treat any loaded gun like a basket of eggs. Seated starts as well. If taking my time to safely get up from the seat adds a second to keep from putting holes in me, then so be it.

I've seen some stages that had you cover a fair amount of distance before you would want to shoot (carrying a dummy etc) that had the opportunity for the magwell to get hit directly straight up. With a 012 pre-013 lock conversion it's possible for the gun to pop out if it gets hit just right (straight up or nearly so). If it's a holster with a lock you can cover that distance, drop the dummy, or whatever, hit the unlock and draw without losing much time. If it's more than a step or two I'm definitely starting with the lock on semi-locked (with the Ribas it's equally secure this way but easier to hit the lever off).

You're right about seated starts. I am very careful to position myself properly for them...LAMR, lock on, sit down, get where I want/need to be and then disengage the lock (for some) and at the beep the first thing that happens is my hand goes to the gun. If there's a little movement before being able to engage targets I'll keep the lock on and disengage after I stand up.

I got to see the new retrofit lock for the 012 yesterday and it's small enough that it shouldn't be easily bumped off accidentally, but large enough and positioned that it shouldn't be too hard to disengage when needed. I still prefer the lever setup that you can flip off as part of the draw, but it is more likely to be bumped off accidentally...no perfect solution.

I also do just as you suggest and bag between stages as much as possible so it's one less thing to worry about (here it also helps keep some dust off the gun too). R,

[Rob Boudrie]

You've seen lab results that show dropping a 1911 flat on it's side, or nearly so, would impart enough inertia to hit the primer?

On it's side, no. On the muzzle from less than 2 feet elevation, yes (I did not see the report, but I trust the person who provided me with the info to have done so accurately). It's unlikely someone will be able tell, with certainty, that impact occurred flat on the side when dropping the gun in a field situation.

[RiggerJJ]

{snip} But my main point is that I do not see why people need to run with a gun in a race holster. {snip}

What about Open class 3gun? Lots of reasons to "run" with a pistol in the holster there!!!And while shooting a long gun! And the options are just not there to use anything other than a "race" holster, as most 3gunners use Cmores. Kydex holster? forget it. I have seen more pistols fall out of Kydex holsters than any other no matter what "kind" of pistol is in it.

There are several I reccomend for 3 gun Open class, and all of them have POSITIVE locking devices that do NOT allow the pistol to come out of the holster AT ALL when it is locked. The Ribas and the Ghost are prime examples.

For the "other" classes that use a iron sighted pistol, I use the same requirements when I reccomend a holster; that it has a POSITIVE locking device that does NOT allow the pistol to come out of the holster when it is locked. an example is the Sherpa.

JMHO

jj

[alcornl]

What about Open class 3gun?

Very true. Did not think about that. I have not gotten into 3 gun yet. Might have to get a speedsec or similar if I get into that.

[JThompson]

I won't argue that it is possible, just that the way my 012's are setup I can beat the magwell all day long and it won't come out except for straight up with a para and sti platform. But my main point is that I do not see why people need to run with a gun in a race holster. If you really need to practice running through every stage before you shoot it, I would definitely take the advise of the previous poster and bag the gun. Secondly, having the weight of the gun in your holster while running could throw off you balance. Seated starts could bump the gun out of any holster if you are starting with the lock disengaged, as most competitors do with locked holsters. The lockable speedsec holster that you pull off when drawing with your fingers could be a good solution to that problem as well. I bought one for my father a couple of years ago and he seemed to like it for an STI edge.

I guess my point is that i treat any loaded gun like a basket of eggs. Seated starts as well. If taking my time to safely get up from the seat adds a second to keep from putting holes in me, then so be it.

I've seen some stages that had you cover a fair amount of distance before you would want to shoot (carrying a dummy etc) that had the opportunity for the magwell to get hit directly straight up. With a 012 pre-013 lock conversion it's possible for the gun to pop out if it gets hit just right (straight up or nearly so). If it's a holster with a lock you can cover that distance, drop the dummy, or whatever, hit the unlock and draw without losing much time. If it's more than a step or two I'm definitely starting with the lock on semi-locked (with the Ribas it's equally secure this way but easier to hit the lever off).

You're right about seated starts. I am very careful to position myself properly for them...LAMR, lock on, sit down, get where I want/need to be and then disengage the lock (for some) and at the beep the first thing that happens is my hand goes to the gun. If there's a little movement before being able to engage targets I'll keep the lock on and disengage after I stand up.

I got to see the new retrofit lock for the 012 yesterday and it's small enough that it shouldn't be easily bumped off accidentally, but large enough and positioned that it shouldn't be too hard to disengage when needed. I still prefer the lever setup that you can flip off as part of the draw, but it is more likely to be bumped off accidentally...no perfect solution.

I also do just as you suggest and bag between stages as much as possible so it's one less thing to worry about (here it also helps keep some dust off the gun too). R,

We had a start recently at "parade rest" which is a sticky wicker for a race holster. I took extra time to make sure I didn't hit the magwell with the back of my hand when coming around.

[Singlestack]

Closed due to drift. If you have something to add thats on topic pm a Mod.

If you wish to continue the holster discussion either start a new thread or find one of the many that are already started.