Unsportsman like conduct?

[RolandF]

Just out of curiousity, why would the RO not have just scored the target a miss anyway?

I don't see anywhere in the rule book where it says "if someone else touches your target the RO scores it the way you tell him/her to".

Looking at 9.1.2 it would seem like the RO has to determine if the delegate has interfered and then score the target. To me interference in the case of target with one hole in it could only be a few things, poking a new hole or tearing the old one bigger, which would be easy to see, or premature pasting, which would be a reshoot.

If someone was poking holes in a target or making other holes bigger I would think that they would be DQ'd.

I am sure this is a case of "club match, who cares, just give the guy a B so we can move on..." but looking at the rule book it doesn't make sense to me.

Well, my friend the RO in this case, didn't have his rule book with him and just gave in to the shooter. My friend has taken the ro class, but still doesn't know all the rules. Me either.

I think XD Niner says it best.

[kgunz11]

A friend was telling me yesterday that he called a score on a target that was challenged. He touched the target, cardboard std, and the competetor said since he (friend) touched the target had to give him his call. My friend said he wasn't exactly sure of the rule, so he gave the competitor his improved score. (The call in question was a bravo/mike, competitor called it a bravo/bravo. While waiting for an overlay, he grabed the target. We talked to our local range master regarding this a day later, and found the friend was in error, that he, being the ro is allowed to touch the target.) But here is where my question comes in. The competitor came back later to my friend and said he knew it was a bravo/mike and just want to challenge it, and since he touched the target he got his way.

The thing is, I have no problem with a competitor challenging a call, but when he returns and says the above, keeping in mind it was a level 3 match (just a local monthly match), and wheather it was even for a gaming advantage(I'm ok with that), I say he should've DQ'd him for unsportsmanlike conduct. The guy should've kept his reasons/rational to himself.

Would that be correct?

I'm sorry, but isn't a local match in fact a Level I match and an Area match (or any major that meets criteria) a Level III?

[kgunz11]

Can DQ someone for confessing to cheating after the end of the match?

According to the rule book:

10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a

Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike

conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty,

failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or

any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute.

So I guess you could, if you wanted to, and you can do it according to the rules.

[Nik Habicht]

Can DQ someone for confessing to cheating after the end of the match?

According to the rule book:

10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a

Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike

conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty,

failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or

any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute.

So I guess you could, if you wanted to, and you can do it according to the rules.

The match is officially over an hour after final results are posted --- so typically you'd have a pretty narrow window.....

[kgunz11]

OK next question, if you are an RO, but not the RO running the stage, what authority do you have outside a COF? Specifically in the case of "or

any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute." Like a competitor using extreme profanity following a COF where there are women and children immediately present at a Level III major match.

[ima45dv8]

Maybe instead of thinking in terms of (what should be) the extreme, last measure (DQ), how about just calling that woman off to the side and asking her to watch her language?

[JKSNIPER]

The guy that did this is a total moron and should be DQ'd for unsportsmanlike conduct and the hosting club should tell him to not bother returning.

We sure don't need people like that stinking up our matches or ranges.

JK

[Nik Habicht]

OK next question, if you are an RO, but not the RO running the stage, what authority do you have outside a COF? Specifically in the case of "or

any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute." Like a competitor using extreme profanity following a COF where there are women and children immediately present at a Level III major match.

If you have an issue not directly related to your area of responsibility --- helping to run competitors through the stage --- you should report that issue up the chain of command, to your CRO, who should in turn confer with the RM if he believes that's indicated......

Those who came before you --- ROs, CROs, and RMs of years of experience --- will often know exactly what to do in a given situation, by virtue of their experience.....

[Pat Miles]

As far as the competitor with the foul mouth. Any of the shooters on the squad should have taken him aside and told him to watch his mouth. If he lipped off during the warning or shot his mouth off again somebody should have asked the RM to do something up to and including DQing him and telling him not to come back. There is no place in this sport for a crude, classless jerk like that.

CYa,

Pat

[Singlestack]

Are we talking about the Boy Scouts or USPSA?

[goneracin]

While I wouldn't call this instance one of unsportsmanlike conduct it speaks volumes of the shooter's integrity. He severely damaged his personal reputation for 14 pretty meaningless points. I'll bet the perception of his character far outlasts the memory of the points unjustly obtained.

I agree with this. If the guy had a legit concern, thats one thing, but if he knowingly tried to screw with the scoring, thats just uncool. I would be sure to remember him in the future. Anything you have to cheat to win at, you need to stop and reevaluate your priorities. I would probably make sure to call im on it at the next match too. If you have a shooters meeting, I would say "please keep your hands off the targets, Joe, this means you as well"

[hf219]

Maybe instead of thinking in terms of (what should be) the extreme, last measure (DQ), how about just calling that woman off to the side and asking her to watch her language?

[hf219]

Heres a good question. Has anyone ever seen a situation unfold, or happen before them that the shooter was DQ'd for Unsporsmanlike Conduct. Ive seen some very tasteless conduct in my short time involved with our sport and have never seen any one of these chuckle heads DQ'd for it. H!

[Dan Burwell]

have never seen any one of these chuckle heads DQ'd for it. H!

Tell me about it we just keep letting you show up

[kgunz11]

Maybe instead of thinking in terms of (what should be) the extreme, last measure (DQ), how about just calling that woman off to the side and asking her to watch her language?

It wasn't a woman, but a man. Everyone kind of looked at him and then at the women and children with a shocked look on their face. He was quite loud with the "F" word several times because he wasn't happy with his run, and he did it under the canopy where 2 full squads were sitting plus all the spectators. To make it worse, his time was better than anyone else's that had been thru the stage. It was very awkward for everyone sitting there.

[JThompson]

Maybe instead of thinking in terms of (what should be) the extreme, last measure (DQ), how about just calling that woman off to the side and asking her to watch her language?

It wasn't a woman, but a man. Everyone kind of looked at him and then at the women and children with a shocked look on their face. He was quite loud with the "F" word several times because he wasn't happy with his run, and he did it under the canopy where 2 full squads were sitting plus all the spectators. To make it worse, his time was better than anyone else's that had been thru the stage. It was very awkward for everyone sitting there.

Nobody told him to stfu?

[ima45dv8]

Maybe he didn't realize. High intensity coupled with disappointment and emotions can do that. I've found that a quiet word, sometimes even just a hand motion or a shake of the head is enough. It troubles me when some think the best first response is to whip out a DQ. If a cautionary word doesn't work and it's truly a chronic problem, then more extreme measures might be called for.

[RolandF]

Can DQ someone for confessing to cheating after the end of the match?

According to the rule book:

10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a

Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike

conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty,

failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or

any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute.

So I guess you could, if you wanted to, and you can do it according to the rules.

I would say it falls under being "dishonest". But, I would think that in this case, it would be a pretty weak argurment to push for a DQ. As it wasn't at a classifier stage, and it was just a local match. I'll keep that in mind and tell my friend, that he could tell the shooter (if something similar happens) that being dishonest is a DQ'able offense.

The match is officially over an hour after final results are posted --- so typically you'd have a pretty narrow window.....

In this case it would have been inside that window. An hour is plenty of time to talk over the days events.

[Chuck Anderson]

I've had targets that I could have sworn I hit, where I asked for an overylay and didn't get it. I've had targets I swore I missed where the RO found my hit. If I ask for an overlay and the RO doesn't give me the hit, or the higher points, or whatever, does that mean I'm cheating or dishonest? In this case the shooter asked for an overlay, the RO made a mistake and the shooter made another mistake in the rules. Nothing about what you said makes me think he was trying to cheat. As an RO I've had several shooters walk away from targets thinking they had misses. Upon taking a closer look at the target the hit was either a double or I found the hit on the edge. Just because the shooter in this case said he knew he missed doesn't mean a whole lot. It's the RO's job to score the target, not the shoooter.

USPSA attracts a variety of shooters, some not so competetive, some very much so. If the shooter tampered with the score card, target, intimidated the RO or brought out a falsified rule book to support his argument, fine DQ him. But nothing RolandF said is deserving of a DQ IMHO.

[Flexmoney]

I removed a handful of posts.

We don't need this to get local or to know any of the local details. The question seems to stand on it's own...let's not attach it to a particular incident. We can talk, discuss and learn...without getting into a pissing match.

Name calling will not be tolerated.

- Admin.

[Flexmoney]

As it wasn't at a classifier stage, and it was just a local match...

Neither of those points are relevant to making a correct call.

We don't have a different rule book for level I matches or classifier stages.

[kgunz11]

I've had targets that I could have sworn I hit, where I asked for an overylay and didn't get it. I've had targets I swore I missed where the RO found my hit. If I ask for an overlay and the RO doesn't give me the hit, or the higher points, or whatever, does that mean I'm cheating or dishonest? In this case the shooter asked for an overlay, the RO made a mistake and the shooter made another mistake in the rules. Nothing about what you said makes me think he was trying to cheat. As an RO I've had several shooters walk away from targets thinking they had misses. Upon taking a closer look at the target the hit was either a double or I found the hit on the edge. Just because the shooter in this case said he knew he missed doesn't mean a whole lot. It's the RO's job to score the target, not the shoooter.

USPSA attracts a variety of shooters, some not so competetive, some very much so. If the shooter tampered with the score card, target, intimidated the RO or brought out a falsified rule book to support his argument, fine DQ him. But nothing RolandF said is deserving of a DQ IMHO.

The competitor came back later to my friend and said he knew it was a bravo/mike and just want to challenge it, and since he touched the target he got his way.

Dishonesty is listed right there beside the cheating.

It troubles me when some think the best first response is to whip out a DQ. If a cautionary word doesn't work and it's truly a chronic problem, then more extreme measures might be called for.

I agree completely.

We don't need this to get local or to know any of the local details. The question seems to stand on it's own...let's not attach it to a particular incident. We can talk, discuss and learn...without getting into a pissing match.

I wasn't going to go into details. Was just curious about the responsibility/duty of an RO outside a COF at a match as far as "any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute" is concerned. It was an awkward situation for all of the 20 or so people standing there. The gentleman was obviously irate and I don't think anybody wanted to say anything to him about his behavior, and I don't think he cared.

Definitions of disrepute on the Web:

• the state of being held in low esteem; "your actions will bring discredit to your name"; "because of the scandal the school has fallen into ...
  wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
  
• Loss or want of reputation; ill character; disesteem; discredit; To bring into disreputation; to hold in dishonor
  

[Sterling White]

High intensity coupled with disappointment and emotions can do that.

Bingo! B class is one of the hardest and most competitive classes and I'm guessing that this person is wrapped up in it. One of his friends should take him aside sometime and talk to him about it. Even replay a video if one was taken of the temper tantrum. A reasonable and mature person would take responsibility for their actions. If its a miss and the overlay confirms it then move on.

[Flexmoney]

Bobby, Two things...

- When you see me post with the pain-in-the-butt green letters and sign-off with the "Admin" tag...I am putting a lid on things.

Steering us back in line. I'm not opening up yet another line of discussion on the forum (feel free to contact the Mod Team off the forum, if desired).

- None of what I posted there had anything to do with you, anyway. As I said, I removed a handful of posts. They weren't any that you made. They were getting into an area we didn't need to get into here on the forum.

Admin.

[Shootingirons45]

I'd like to add my 2 cents worth here. As a long time USPSA shooter I think I've seen almost every sort of shooter out there. I'll not add much to the issue of cheating other than to speak of folks in the third person. Who has the person really cheated? He/She may have "won" his/her class or division, but at what cost? I know this much. NO award, title or placement is worth my good name. Your fellow shooters will all know, sooner or later, if you in fact did cheat. I'm sure that in life we've all seen things like this happen and can anybody really say that in the end, they profitted by it? Our sport is a honorable sport, shot by honorable people.

As far as folks using bad language in front of women and kids I'd just say that I'm as guilty as anybody of doing it. I never did it on purpose and was more embarrassed than those that heard it. If the person did it on purpose then a word to the wise ought to suffice. Again..what is your good name worth? I'm much more careful nowadays than I used to be as we do have more and more families showing up.

Ok, so maybe I put in 10 cents. Thanks for listening..