Double Tap Ranch Championship

[CHA-LEE]

The way I see it any match is what you make of it. If your goal is to whine, cry and nit pick every little thing then some level of fault will always be found no matter how good/bad the match is run. If you go to have a good time and roll with the flow then delays in shooting, poor weather, or other things out of your control are just part of the experience. This was my first DT and I thought that it was a great match. Could some things be done better? Sure. Could some things be done worse? Sure. I know that I was happy with how the match was run and felt like the match entry fee was well worth it for the shooting experience I gained and entertainment I received.

There will always be some kind of issue in whatever we are doing. What separates us is how we deal with the issues. When our squad was waiting due to the Stage 12 log jam we took that opportunity to do other things like clean mags, double check our hit factors, or simply get something to eat or drink. The overall attitude of my squad with regards to the delay was "Ok, we will wait our turn" nothing more nothing less. Sure, you can get all worked up about the situation but really, what can you do other than look like an ass because you impatient. We were all in the same boat and the match director was working the issue so there really was nothing more to do than to be patient and wait your turn to shoot the next stage.

I will be back next year as I had a great time and all of the stages were fun and challenging.

[dqshooter]

Okay I will take the hit for the must be present to win idea, Not Porters Idea.

Last year it doubled the time for the prize table because we had one person with 25 tickets waiting on the names to be called, there were more than just that one case. Prises were picked up and it wasn't what someone wanted and I had to field those phone calls, If this was an order of finish table it would take that much longer. I think the way Robert handles the prize table very well. I sure all of you that have been at a big match when you started and had to wait on order of finish; you are some where in the middle or on the end and ended up with some creappy springfield towel or a cozy and some progrip and were not happy. whether you are first or dead last you will get something good and of value at the double tap, hell how many range bags do some folks need. I would like to make eveyone happy but we all know that is not going to happen, so my aim is to make as many folks as happy as I can.

Some great suggestions have been made and I will discuss some of them with porter. I like the feed back, nothing is that bad that I take personnally. If i took it personnally, ask anyone who knows me, you would know it.

Please thank all of the sponsors and keep them in mind when you are buying equipment, they support you, you should support them.

[thegirl]

Please thank all of the sponsors and keep them in mind when you are buying equipment, they support you, you should support them.

Along those lines, I took the time to send e-mails to the list of sponsors that David put on the other DTC thread, plus a few others that got left off the list. I got several responses back saying thanks for simply taking the time to say "thanks". They were very appreciative, and several said they will do it again next year (including Dillon, woo hoo!). If you haven't done this yet, please make the time - it will only make Robert's job easier next year when he goes to build up the prize table.

[Rob Boudrie]

Had a similar incident on the same stage - one of the ROs got rather loud about telling me I was in a bad spot for videoing (nowhere near the 180), and that he'd told me four times already not to be there. I told him that this was the first time I'd be standing anywhere near the stage to video tape. He got nose to nose with me and told me he'd "call the Range Master and have my ass DQ'ed for not obeying a Range Officer". rolleyes.gif I suspect the same RO - the other guy was calm, cool, and collected...

I don't know what was said, so these are general comments about how such a situation could be handled.

There is no need to be impolite when serving as an RO. If I were the RO and wanted someone to move who was refusing, I would simply say "If you don't move, I will issue a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct, at which point you will have the right to file an arbitration with the match director. I would really prefer not to issue that ruling. How would you like to handle this situation?"

The RO is responsible for the stage. The 180 is an absolute constraint on the competitor, however, the fact that a competitor cannot be DQd for staying just within that limit does not mean that spectators have the right to stand anywhere outside the 180 when the RO asks them to move.

[XRe]

There is no need to be impolite when serving as an RO. If I were the RO and wanted someone to move who was refusing, I would simply say "If you don't move, I will issue a DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct, at which point you will have the right to file an arbitration with the match director. I would really prefer not to issue that ruling. How would you like to handle this situation?"

Absolutely. Polite and calm beats loud and in your face any day For the record, no one refused to move

The RO is responsible for the stage. The 180 is an absolute constraint on the competitor, however, the fact that a competitor cannot be DQd for staying just within that limit does not mean that spectators have the right to stand anywhere outside the 180 when the RO asks them to move.

While this is true, in the particular case being discussed, the place I was standing was a good 35-45 degrees back from the 180... And, I was more than willing to move to somewhere else... While I trust the guy who was on the gun, I'm not gonna go stand somewhere unsafe. I'll leave that to Yamil...

[lneel]

one issue that popped up and slowed us down were shooters putting the bar codes on the wrong score sheets, we had more than a few of these and boy do they mess up your scoring. I am hopeful(ha) that Robert will go the way of the Palm scoring system next year.

Palm Scoring is the one thing that could seriously keep from coming back. Seriously. That system is not ready. It's a neat thing that one day could be great. However, that is someday. Not now.

Chris

Chris,

I think you must be basing your opinion of the Palm Scoring system used at Nationals this past year. This is NOT what we will be using at Area 4 nor DTC next year if I help score.

The program we are using is Rod Cassidy's Stage Score His Website. It is a fantastic product and has been extensively tested and given approval by USPSA to use at Level I, II, and III matches. It is a MUCH more simple system to use and I have plenty of hardware.

I worked with Rod to get an option included in the program to print multiple scoresheets at once. After the stage is scored the RO and shooter review the results, the RO points the Palm at an Infrared printer and 2 copies are printed. one for the shooter and one for the safe box. I have enough Palms for every stage to have 2 to resolve any battery issues...I also have enough Infrared printers for each stage to have 2 plus a few extra's. At each squad change scores will be beamed from the stage Palms to a Master Palm and the sync'ed to another one for a 3rd copy of the data. While sh!t happens it would be very unlikely to lose any electronic data and even if we did we still have those printed copies.

I assure you I wouldn't have invested so much of my personal funds in all this hardware if I was not 100% confident it is to be a reliable system. As you can imagine 28 Palms and 26 Industrial Infrared Thermal printers was more than a few bucks.

Lastly, yes, I have already planned and tested the units for the bad weather/dusty environment of the DTR. The units work fine inside a heavy freezer bag and will print to a printer inside a plastic box.

This system will completely eliminate the shooters need to put barcodes on the scoresheets(and the wrong scoresheet). It will also eliminate an unknown number of scoresheets which appearantly blew away.

Lee

[KGentry]

one issue that popped up and slowed us down were shooters putting the bar codes on the wrong score sheets, we had more than a few of these and boy do they mess up your scoring. I am hopeful(ha) that Robert will go the way of the Palm scoring system next year.

Palm Scoring is the one thing that could seriously keep from coming back. Seriously. That system is not ready. It's a neat thing that one day could be great. However, that is someday. Not now.

Chris

Chris,

I think you must be basing your opinion of the Palm Scoring system used at Nationals this past year. This is NOT what we will be using at Area 4 nor DTC next year if I help score.

The program we are using is Rod Cassidy's Stage Score His Website. It is a fantastic product and has been extensively tested and given approval by USPSA to use at Level I, II, and III matches. It is a MUCH more simple system to use and I have plenty of hardware.

I worked with Rod to get an option included in the program to print multiple scoresheets at once. After the stage is scored the RO and shooter review the results, the RO points the Palm at an Infrared printer and 2 copies are printed. one for the shooter and one for the safe box. I have enough Palms for every stage to have 2 to resolve any battery issues...I also have enough Infrared printers for each stage to have 2 plus a few extra's. At each squad change scores will be beamed from the stage Palms to a Master Palm and the sync'ed to another one for a 3rd copy of the data. While sh!t happens it would be very unlikely to lose any electronic data and even if we did we still have those printed copies.

I assure you I wouldn't have invested so much of my personal funds in all this hardware if I was not 100% confident it is to be a reliable system. As you can imagine 28 Palms and 26 Industrial Infrared Thermal printers was more than a few bucks.

Lastly, yes, I have already planned and tested the units for the bad weather/dusty environment of the DTR. The units work fine inside a heavy freezer bag and will print to a printer inside a plastic box.

This system will completely eliminate the shooters need to put barcodes on the scoresheets(and the wrong scoresheet). It will also eliminate an unknown number of scoresheets which appearantly blew away.

Lee

The system you are working on is the way to go and the future of scoring matches - Good Job Lee!!!

[AlamoShooter]

paging Robert Porter

I was trying to contact a few sponsors , The email on Ergo Grips keeps coming back. from the website ergogrips.net

also in the prize pack I got some -Hoppies , a small knife , Glasses cleaning kit. Who do I thank for that stuff?

I mailed a note to Jimmy for the lead bullets.

[Resjudicata]

one issue that popped up and slowed us down were shooters putting the bar codes on the wrong score sheets, we had more than a few of these and boy do they mess up your scoring. I am hopeful(ha) that Robert will go the way of the Palm scoring system next year.

Palm Scoring is the one thing that could seriously keep from coming back. Seriously. That system is not ready. It's a neat thing that one day could be great. However, that is someday. Not now.

Chris

Chris,

I think you must be basing your opinion of the Palm Scoring system used at Nationals this past year. This is NOT what we will be using at Area 4 nor DTC next year if I help score.

The program we are using is Rod Cassidy's Stage Score His Website. It is a fantastic product and has been extensively tested and given approval by USPSA to use at Level I, II, and III matches. It is a MUCH more simple system to use and I have plenty of hardware.

I worked with Rod to get an option included in the program to print multiple scoresheets at once. After the stage is scored the RO and shooter review the results, the RO points the Palm at an Infrared printer and 2 copies are printed. one for the shooter and one for the safe box. I have enough Palms for every stage to have 2 to resolve any battery issues...I also have enough Infrared printers for each stage to have 2 plus a few extra's. At each squad change scores will be beamed from the stage Palms to a Master Palm and the sync'ed to another one for a 3rd copy of the data. While sh!t happens it would be very unlikely to lose any electronic data and even if we did we still have those printed copies.

I assure you I wouldn't have invested so much of my personal funds in all this hardware if I was not 100% confident it is to be a reliable system. As you can imagine 28 Palms and 26 Industrial Infrared Thermal printers was more than a few bucks.

Lastly, yes, I have already planned and tested the units for the bad weather/dusty environment of the DTR. The units work fine inside a heavy freezer bag and will print to a printer inside a plastic box.

This system will completely eliminate the shooters need to put barcodes on the scoresheets(and the wrong scoresheet). It will also eliminate an unknown number of scoresheets which appearantly blew away.

Lee

That's great. However, keep in mind that no matter how good your software is, it is only as good as the training you get for the RO's. Make sure that everyone who uses the software gets several hours of training and then assess their knowledge to see how much more instruction each will need from there. Every RO MUST be absolutely fluent in the software and the hardware running it before the first shot is fired.

One thing I've seen with both pieces of software for this job is that if the RO makes a mistake and selects the wrong shooter then enters the score he/she cannot change the name of the shooter to the correct one. They have to hand write the scores, delete the score they just entered and then transfer the score back to the palm. This is too easy a thing to allow in the software for it not to exist. The shooter name on the scoring screen should be a drop down menu of some kind so that the shooter name can be changed before, during and after scoring that stage.

Chris

[lneel]

one issue that popped up and slowed us down were shooters putting the bar codes on the wrong score sheets, we had more than a few of these and boy do they mess up your scoring. I am hopeful(ha) that Robert will go the way of the Palm scoring system next year.

Palm Scoring is the one thing that could seriously keep from coming back. Seriously. That system is not ready. It's a neat thing that one day could be great. However, that is someday. Not now.

Chris

Chris,

I think you must be basing your opinion of the Palm Scoring system used at Nationals this past year. This is NOT what we will be using at Area 4 nor DTC next year if I help score.

The program we are using is Rod Cassidy's Stage Score His Website. It is a fantastic product and has been extensively tested and given approval by USPSA to use at Level I, II, and III matches. It is a MUCH more simple system to use and I have plenty of hardware.

I worked with Rod to get an option included in the program to print multiple scoresheets at once. After the stage is scored the RO and shooter review the results, the RO points the Palm at an Infrared printer and 2 copies are printed. one for the shooter and one for the safe box. I have enough Palms for every stage to have 2 to resolve any battery issues...I also have enough Infrared printers for each stage to have 2 plus a few extra's. At each squad change scores will be beamed from the stage Palms to a Master Palm and the sync'ed to another one for a 3rd copy of the data. While sh!t happens it would be very unlikely to lose any electronic data and even if we did we still have those printed copies.

I assure you I wouldn't have invested so much of my personal funds in all this hardware if I was not 100% confident it is to be a reliable system. As you can imagine 28 Palms and 26 Industrial Infrared Thermal printers was more than a few bucks.

Lastly, yes, I have already planned and tested the units for the bad weather/dusty environment of the DTR. The units work fine inside a heavy freezer bag and will print to a printer inside a plastic box.

This system will completely eliminate the shooters need to put barcodes on the scoresheets(and the wrong scoresheet). It will also eliminate an unknown number of scoresheets which appearantly blew away.

Lee

That's great. However, keep in mind that no matter how good your software is, it is only as good as the training you get for the RO's. Make sure that everyone who uses the software gets several hours of training and then assess their knowledge to see how much more instruction each will need from there. Every RO MUST be absolutely fluent in the software and the hardware running it before the first shot is fired.

One thing I've seen with both pieces of software for this job is that if the RO makes a mistake and selects the wrong shooter then enters the score he/she cannot change the name of the shooter to the correct one. They have to hand write the scores, delete the score they just entered and then transfer the score back to the palm. This is too easy a thing to allow in the software for it not to exist. The shooter name on the scoring screen should be a drop down menu of some kind so that the shooter name can be changed before, during and after scoring that stage.

Chris

Chris,

Your are very correct on the training. We will provide the demo software for the RO selected to work the match. ALL staff will be required to be familiar with it before the match and there will be a formal training session for all of them who have not used it previously. This will not be a quick here's how it works and now go score task. It will be a sit down and learn or we will find other staff. I do appreciate your concerns and will work very hard to ensure a fairly scored event.

As far as the ability to select shooters during the scoring process, I will get with Rod and see if that is possible. Thanks for the suggestion.

Lee

[dqshooter]

Most of the Items in the prize boxes like the glasses, oil, cleaner or glasses cleaner packages were arranged by porter. As for the Ergo Grips I believe it is www.falconind.com.

Thanks to all the sponsors and if all that shot the match could take a little time and send out a Email to the sponsors it would be greatly appreciated by us. MGM did a great job with the targets, Mike was hesitant because of some bad experiences and He really did us a solid with the sponsorship, plus I think MGM makes the best targets and steel products you can buy(personal opp. of course). Firebird precision fireamrs supplied the AR15 M4 for the overall match winner and it was a kick A#% rifle. USSA and STI always does a great job supporting the match. I would also like to say that Larue did a great job especially since he was supporting his own match. There were so many sponsors that came online for us it is difficult to thank them all. Hopefully we can get some others online for next year but all this is really up to the shooters to let these companies know that you appriciate them.

As for the palm scoring stuff that is going to happen at Area four, I wouldn't sweat it, Speers and the crew will do a great job. I am sure there will be some hick'ups but nothing that can't be fixed. i am looking forward to just being able to shoot a match as a competitor.

[Shawn Knight]

That's great. However, keep in mind that no matter how good your software is, it is only as good as the training you get for the RO's. Make sure that everyone who uses the software gets several hours of training and then assess their knowledge to see how much more instruction each will need from there. Every RO MUST be absolutely fluent in the software and the hardware running it before the first shot is fired.

One thing I've seen with both pieces of software for this job is that if the RO makes a mistake and selects the wrong shooter then enters the score he/she cannot change the name of the shooter to the correct one. They have to hand write the scores, delete the score they just entered and then transfer the score back to the palm. This is too easy a thing to allow in the software for it not to exist. The shooter name on the scoring screen should be a drop down menu of some kind so that the shooter name can be changed before, during and after scoring that stage.

Chris

I knew how to use Palm based scoring within 30 seconds of holding the gadget in my hands. It only takes someone that can pay attention and an RO with a little patience in calling out scores.

I understand some people had issues with the palm delaying their shooting at Area 3 in 2008 but the system worked very well and was very quick on final scoring.

Stage Score might be better but having to learn a new system will not be much more difficult the learning how to use a new cell phone.

Edited to add:

I will be here for the Flintstones no matter what the weather does and I WILL go home with a bigger trophy next time too!

And no I won't try to shoot the DTC with a revolver no matter how much I want to try...

Edited April 7, 2009 by Shawn Knight

[Resjudicata]

I agree that some folks can learn the Palm based scoring very quickly. However, not everyone can. (Not that it's their fault).

What it comes down to is to either make absolutely sure that everyone responsible for scoring is completely fluent with the software so that no shooter ends up worse off just because of the scoring system you choose to use. If you can't be sure of this then it shouldn't be used until you are absolutely sure.

When the weather or conditions are a problem people talk about it and complain but they still come back. However, when people don't get the scores they earn because of screw ups that wouldn't have happened from using paper scoring then that will make folks not want to come back to a match.

Chris

[shootingchef]

Since you sign your own scorecard even with Stage Score, you best be looking at YOUR score before the score keeper hits the save key. It is safe to say, that the RO's will be trained with the Palm or they won't be RO's. There is no risk here. The program is also really good about adding up required shots, and won't let you save a stage without correcting your hits, a big problem with some paper systems.

[Shawn Knight]

You are correct, training is needed for these new electronic scoring systems. However just like keeping up with our practice keeps us shooting well, getting proficient in these new systems requires us to practice with them. our club uses Palm based scoring for club matches and that helps maintain our proficiency level when it comes time for the major matches. Anyone that is an RO and travels to different clubs to work these major matches needs to be familiar with all methods of scoring and be proficient in them. I will be attending an RO class in June and I will most likely work Area 3 so I need to make sure I can handle any situation that comes up with these systems. We will have several experts available for trouble but as always with any system problems will occur like score sheets blowing away, electronics failing, and just plain human error. Anyone that has marked the wrong target block on a score sheet knows this. Things will go worng but it is how we handle those problems that makes for a good match.

[Resjudicata]

Things will go worng but it is how we handle those problems that makes for a good match.

This is true, in part.

Does the RO certification cover the new Palm based scoring programs now? If it doesn't then it should. It seems that it is getting more and more popular so any new RO cert's should also cover an element of Palm scoring usage.

Chris

[Shawn Knight]

Does the RO certification cover the new Palm based scoring programs now?

I will find out in June unless someone who has been to a recent class can say otherwise!

[shootingchef]

The technique of scoring does not change regardless of the method used. I doubt HQ will mandate a training for Palm's.

1. call and echo each target while recording each.

2. record time

3. verify totals

4. both parties sign

5. NEW- receive print out and note the accuracy and calculated hit factor!

6. minutes after the last shooter is done, scores are uploaded to the video scoreboards.(visionary thought)

[Aristotle]

Does the RO certification cover the new Palm based scoring programs now?

I will find out in June unless someone who has been to a recent class can say otherwise!

No, they did not cover Palm scoring. I took my class the other week with G.J.

[Resjudicata]

Does the RO certification cover the new Palm based scoring programs now?

I will find out in June unless someone who has been to a recent class can say otherwise!

No, they did not cover Palm scoring. I took my class the other week with G.J.

This is good to know. I for one will email HQ and politely ask that this be a required part of RO certification. Since HQ is intent on using a form of Palm scoring at major matches and it seems that Area matches as well seem to really want to use it I think it is only the responsible thing for HQ to do.

It really seems to me that proper training and some minor software additions/upgrades are the only things standing in the way of almost universal support for electronic scoring.

Chris