dqshooter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I hope eveyone had at least some fun at the Double Tap Champ. this year. The weather just wouldn't cooperate, Friday Cold, wet and wind, Sat cold,dry and wind(lots of wind), Sun cold in the am and hot in the afternoon. I was sorry to see so many people leave on sunday before the prize table drawing. there was about $30,000 on the regular prize table and the other drawing was about $10,000. Down to the dirt: Yes the scoring, prizes and awards do take time. We had problems with one squad and it hurt the entire match, I will not appologize for them, when you feel you have to argue evey shot for no good reason and always have to game everything it just slows things way down (2 hrs and 25 minto shot one stage). No one waited 4 hours by the way to shoot any stage, we moved the waiting stages to other stages as much as we could. this is an instance where you as fellow shooters need to get on the other competitors that are slowing down the match and move them along, peer pressure can sometimes do wonders. I am sorry that some of you did have to wait, we had some issues that are going to be addressed and will not happen again. It is difficult to say the least, to put on a match of this size and not have some issues. We will fix it and it should not happen again. i enjoyed working with all of you and hope you will come back, keep bringing new folks with you and keep this sport growing. RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I was sorry to see so many people leave on sunday before the prize table drawing. there was about $30,000 on the regular prize table and the other drawing was about $10,000. I wouldn't take it personally, Steve In my case, we needed to get on the road, and I already had a great prize (what, with that bitchin' trophy and all ), so someone else got my goodies from the random table We had problems with one squad and it hurt the entire match, I will not appologize for them, I definitely don't think you should feel like you have a need to apologize for what occurred. Certainly not a fault of the match staff. this is an instance where you as fellow shooters need to get on the other competitors that are slowing down the match and move them along, peer pressure can sometimes do wonders. Careful with that You might have bigger issues on your hands than a little delay and grumbling... I am sorry that some of you did have to wait, we had some issues that are going to be addressed and will not happen again. It is difficult to say the least, to put on a match of this size and not have some issues. One thing I'll say - there's a distinct track record for this match to improve upon itself each year. Every time there's been a hiccup, there was a solution the next year. Scoring was much quicker this year, with few issues (some misplaced score sheets is about it, AFAIK?). The prize table moved as quickly as such a thing can - I mean, damn, you handed out some huge number of items before doing trophies!!! Well, you can't fix the weather. And, you can't really control competitor actions... Perhaps a little more creativity in terms of bulletproofing stages once they're set up would have helped with the Stage 12 situation, but in the end, those shooters were given enough rope to hang themselves with on that stage - and they would've continued to do so if the electrical cord issue weren't there. So... no worries, man. You guys did a good job. There's rarely a big match that doesn't have some sort of issue with it - the key is how the issues are handled. Now... has your blood pressure come down yet? My understanding is that being an RM at a major match takes 1.32 years off of your life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dqshooter Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 thanks, I would like a picture with you and the trophey for the web site if you could. Steven@anythingfrom wood.com Blood pressure is fine, better living through chemistry. (prozac helps toooooooooooooooooooooo!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 You got it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 one issue that popped up and slowed us down were shooters putting the bar codes on the wrong score sheets, we had more than a few of these and boy do they mess up your scoring. I am hopeful(ha) that Robert will go the way of the Palm scoring system next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerwas Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 one issue that popped up and slowed us down were shooters putting the bar codes on the wrong score sheets, we had more than a few of these and boy do they mess up your scoring. I am hopeful(ha) that Robert will go the way of the Palm scoring system next year. ICK! NO!!! I like getting my score sheet so I can look at the nice little boxes that show all the targets and the hits placed on them. I love looking and comparing all the hits. OH WAIT, that's right, idiot me left all those yellow sheets on the visor in the rental car so now I don't have ANY of that information anymore!!! I had nothing to do on the 2hr flight home. What is a stat guy to do??? ARGH!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket35 Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 (edited) Well I have my yellow copies and the "Time of Day Stage Shot" supports the amount of time we waited to shoot stage 12. It was approximately 4 hours, but that was broken into two times of long periods of waiting for the same stage. So yes, total time was accounted for in that ballpark. Waiting was one thing...but the lack of affirmation and accomodation is what is sticking in my mind as unacceptable. We suggested to be moved ahead instead of waiting several times before we were finally moved to shoot other stages. We were not afforded the opportunity to shoot any more than 2 other stages. I am sure that these issues are being looked into, and will be improved for next year. Most all of the RO's were great and a pleasure to deal with. The stages were awesome and am sure next year would be just as top notch. Edited April 2, 2009 by Rocket35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 one issue that popped up and slowed us down were shooters putting the bar codes on the wrong score sheets, we had more than a few of these and boy do they mess up your scoring. I am hopeful(ha) that Robert will go the way of the Palm scoring system next year. ICK! NO!!! I like getting my score sheet so I can look at the nice little boxes that show all the targets and the hits placed on them. I love looking and comparing all the hits. OH WAIT, that's right, idiot me left all those yellow sheets on the visor in the rental car so now I don't have ANY of that information anymore!!! I had nothing to do on the 2hr flight home. What is a stat guy to do??? ARGH!! Untill that scoring system can give the shooter a hard copy to check over... I think its a flaw that WILL cause LOTS of trouble!! At The DDC my wife had THREE stages that had gross errors on them...one had her shooting in HALF the time The GMs shot in I will never trust a system That I cant verify JMHO...Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Untill that scoring system can give the shooter a hard copy to check over...I think its a flaw that WILL cause LOTS of trouble!! At the Nationals this past year, you were given a small carbonless form that had your stage data on it. It was not separated into individual targets, but you had your A/B/C/D/M count, plus penalties and time. Any match using Pam scoring should do the same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I won't comment on the stages that were changed during the match. But, if I remember right, competitors that already shot them should be offered to reshoot them. I don't believe that happened... 2.3.3 and 2.3.4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 (edited) I had a great time, Steve, thanks for the hard work. As said before, don't take the people skipping the prize table personaly.... people were tired, cold, hungry, and just wanted to go home. Many had long drives ahead of them. I had my wife and kids in town, and had to blow out of there Friday at NLT 6pm... I thnk I left about 10 mins after 6 - (before the prize table was close to starting), I had previous commitments etc. Would love to have hung out later but could not. Which I'm fine with, my decision to leave. As a suggestion, if you continue the random draw prize thing, I'd consider: abandon the bucket raffle part, go with a straight random draw, and just add that big prize stuff to the big table - the good stuff will all still be awarded..... you could even save some good time right there.... and then just have all the table prizes pre-numbered on the bins, 1, 2, 3, 98, 99 etc and have people draw a ticket as they are done shooting for the day, and pick their random prize up right then, rather than waiting til everyone is done. A free flow prize table so to speak. As there were no awards on Friday, no need for a captive audience, right? You could even do this on Sunday, as people are waiting for scores, no waiting around listening for your number to be drawn, just draw your ticket when ready and hit the prize table, and then the only wait would be for the Awards and actual match prizes. Anyway, as nasty as Friday was weather wise - it was fun, the stages were challenging, and I'll be back next year! Edited April 1, 2009 by sfinney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 there will be printed copies of the score sheets given to the shooter after he signs the Palm and it goes to a IR printer that the score keeper has. 2 hard copies will be generated at the end of each shooter's run. Check out Stage Score, Rod has done his homework and the program kicks ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerwas Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 there will be printed copies of the score sheets given to the shooter after he signs the Palm and it goes to a IR printer that the score keeper has. 2 hard copies will be generated at the end of each shooter's run. Check out Stage Score, Rod has done his homework and the program kicks ass. So we'd still get score sheets like we do now, but they would also utilize the palm scoring? That would be an improvement over the nationals scoring as well. The palm did allow for MUCH faster scoring, but I still like getting the full score sheet vs that 1/2" strip of paper... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Print out is a thermal 2.5 inch white paper, it will show each target scored, stage, time, date and Hit factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 And the backup plan for dead printers is??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Our Mr. Puter Wizard has back ups of the back ups. There will be back up printers. they are battery powered and portable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseywales Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 (edited) So we'd still get score sheets like we do now...Not quite like you do now, I'm guessing it's an 8pt font....as Ken saidPrint out is a thermal 2.5 inch white paper, it will show each target scored, stage, time, date and Hit factor. And the backup plan for dead printers is??? Fresh from the planning offices at DoubleTap headquarters for 2010 (WARNING - after this weekend, Prozac in use at DTCHQ) "Well, you see here, this plan here, is that we've got these here 13 horses...one for each stage. Front left foot counts A's, front right counts B's, back right counts C's, back left counts D's. Two whinneys for each no-shoot, and they'll just take a sh$t for every Mike!" Ok, seriously...the computer guy is a network storage engineer (EMC bigot) and is thoroughly grounded in the need/value for equipment & process redundancy. And besides...ALL of the bugs are to be worked out prior to use at Area 4 this year! RIGHT LEE? Edited April 1, 2009 by joseywales Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I hope eveyone had at least some fun at the Double Tap Champ. this year. The weather just wouldn't cooperate, Friday Cold, wet and wind, Sat cold,dry and wind(lots of wind), Sun cold in the am and hot in the afternoon. I was sorry to see so many people leave on sunday before the prize table drawing. there was about $30,000 on the regular prize table and the other drawing was about $10,000. Down to the dirt: Yes the scoring, prizes and awards do take time. We had problems with one squad and it hurt the entire match, I will not appologize for them, when you feel you have to argue evey shot for no good reason and always have to game everything it just slows things way down (2 hrs and 25 minto shot one stage). No one waited 4 hours by the way to shoot any stage, we moved the waiting stages to other stages as much as we could. this is an instance where you as fellow shooters need to get on the other competitors that are slowing down the match and move them along, peer pressure can sometimes do wonders. I am sorry that some of you did have to wait, we had some issues that are going to be addressed and will not happen again. It is difficult to say the least, to put on a match of this size and not have some issues. We will fix it and it should not happen again. i enjoyed working with all of you and hope you will come back, keep bringing new folks with you and keep this sport growing. RM Yeah, I did have fun despite the weather doing it's best to foil our day (I was a Friday shooter). One thing I would like to see changed is the "you must be present to win" critera with regard to the prize table. I elected to shoot the match all day Friday so I could go to LaRue on Saturday and Sunday. Now, I don't expect the match staff/director to ship prizes out, but I did arrange for someone on my squad to retrieve anything I might win. Now, I still had a 3.5 hour drive ahead of me and a gun to clean for the next day and my equipment to reconfigure so I was not really in the position to hang around and wait for a certain squad to finish up and then for the numbers to be called out. Myself, and quite a few others in this position paid the same match fees as everyone else, but do to some personal choices were unable to partake of the prize table. (I later found out what I would have won... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resjudicata Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 one issue that popped up and slowed us down were shooters putting the bar codes on the wrong score sheets, we had more than a few of these and boy do they mess up your scoring. I am hopeful(ha) that Robert will go the way of the Palm scoring system next year. Palm Scoring is the one thing that could seriously keep from coming back. Seriously. That system is not ready. It's a neat thing that one day could be great. However, that is someday. Not now. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 First, let me say that the majority of the stage RO's did a first class job running their stages. A few others left a lot to be desired. Before everybody starts flaming me let me explain. On stage 11 I asked the RO if propping the gun would be allowed. After being told no I asked where in the written stage briefing it said I couldn't. I was approached by one of the RO"s who got in my face and told me that he would give me a copy of the current rules and I could show him where it said I could prop the gun. WTF!! The RO also took the time to explain that since no previous shooter had propped their gun I would not be allowed to do so. At that point I asked for the RM to come and give me an answer. The RO came and said that external propping devices were prohibited per the new rule book. Not a problem as my gun has a thumb rest and I didn't want to press the issue if no one else on the squad cared. Later I asked the RM to show me where the current rule book addressed "external propping devices". After a couple of minutes looking he admitted he was wrong and that I could have propped the gun. Aside from being handled very poorly by the stage RO and the fact that some folks didn't know their rulebook and wouldn't take the time to get the rulebook out I contrast this stage with stage 4 and the written stage description that stated the gun would be "flat on table". Those three words nailed it as far as gun propping. On to Stage 12, the problem child of the match. The problems that led to the backup need to laid at the feet of the stage RO's and the RM. I was told by one of the RO's on the stage that Squad 21 was contesting their hits on the targets and this was the reason for the backup. If the RO's would have used rule 9.6.7 the backup problem would have been shortened greatly. As it was there was up to fifteen minutes between shooters. Given the fact that I was on squad 20 and the sounds of the shots fired by the shooters were very noticable and unique it was very easy to take the time between shooters which I did several times while waiting. Twice we asked if we could jump ahead of Squad 21. Twice we were told no. Finally we were allowed to do so. Yes, we waited a total of almost four hours. Yes, I have my yellow sheets with the time of day entered by the RO's to refer to. In regards to the wait for awards that fiasco could have been mitigated in a couple of ways. First would have been the use of StageScore. Those that want a paper copy of their results could have a buddy tallying their hits (or in my case, misses). Yes, there is a learning curve involved for the RO's. The RO's could take a minute longer per shooter to make sure the shooters scores were correct. The finals would have been out probably before the shooters parked their chairs in front of the prize table. A second way to mitigate the wait would have been to start the prize table walks while waiting. As it was about 40% of the winners were not present to accept their awards. Those that wanted to stay for the class awards could have done so and those that didn't could have left. In regards to the weather...Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances! Either stay and shoot or go home. Your choice! Again, my hat is off to the RO's who did their best to run their stages fairly and efficiently. Before anybody starts flaming me about not knowing what it takes to RO a match this size I was, and am, a CRO at the DT in 2008. Been there, done it! CYa, Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I'll be back. Score it how you want, do the prize table how you want(mostly), let the weather do it's worst, whatever, I had fun!!!! I thought you guys did an exceptional job especially with all the inclement weather. After shooting at the Really Big Match in the Southeast State for two years, the little hour long waits our squad had here were nothing. It was just a couple of times & of course, things happen. No big deal. That other match was like that all day both days for the squads I was on. Trust me, this was nothing. If there was one thing that may have helped both at that match & here, it might have been to have less shooters in the match. Maybe. I've been to all 5 of the Dbl Tap matches & with the exception of some computer problems, this was the only time I have had any wait time even worth mentioning. I am sorry some of the squads had longer waits but things happen sometimes. I know it is discouraging & tiring & can disrupt your "flow" but what can be done? Everyone has great ideas on what should have been done but I don't see them stepping up to help run big matches. I'm sure it is not as easy as it looks. You can't just go shuffling squads here & there. One squad may wind up with less wait time but the odds are good it will screw up several others. As long as you are on the one squad it helps, I guess that is ok but if you are on one of the others that has to wait it is not so good. Steve, please don't take any of the things that have been said personally, ok? Those things can do damage & you can't let that happen. I appreciate you stepping up at the last minute & I have to say, you did a heck of a fine job. The trophies were great looking, as well. Very cool! As for the prize table, I know you guys put lots of effort in it but I had to leave after the awards were done. Being number 64 in limited with my carpool guy down pretty far in Open, it was time to go. After being wet/frozen/windblown/sunburned/ then getting dusty, we just had to get on the road. I'm sure the $$$ value of the prizes was worth it to stay for some folks but not necessarily for us. I made the 3.5hrs home before dark so all was well in the miller household. When can we sign up for next year? I am ready to send in my app now! hahaha. See y'all at A-4! MLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulture Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I have never been to this match but i plan on going next year. My daughter has a friend in Plano she wants to see so i guess we will make it a family outing. What's the theme for next year? I know, bailouts, you have to carry buckets on all the stages and dump money down the drain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 the theme for next year is Flinstones... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 I was approached by one of the RO"s who got in my face Had a similar incident on the same stage - one of the ROs got rather loud about telling me I was in a bad spot for videoing (nowhere near the 180), and that he'd told me four times already not to be there. I told him that this was the first time I'd be standing anywhere near the stage to video tape. He got nose to nose with me and told me he'd "call the Range Master and have my ass DQ'ed for not obeying a Range Officer". I suspect the same RO - the other guy was calm, cool, and collected... That, for me, was the only mar on an otherwise superb match. Interestingly, the two stages I was slightly pissed off around (11 and 12) I won... Maybe that's an indicator of a mental attitude I need to investigate... On to Stage 12, the problem child of the match. The problems that led to the backup need to laid at the feet of the stage RO's and the RM. I was told by one of the RO's on the stage that Squad 21 was contesting their hits on the targets and this was the reason for the backup. If the RO's would have used rule 9.6.7 the backup problem would have been shortened greatly. You don't know the facts. The greatest part of the delay caused by the first scoring protest is detailed in the post I made in the match thread There were a couple of other scoring challenges that were resolved on the spot through use of an overlay, etc - I was in the bay quite a bit, pasting targets, etc. If that were the only delay on stage 12, we'd have been on and shooting 13 with a total of 15 minutes of delay (and remember, due to previous slow downs on 12, squad 21 was told to go to lunch after Stage 11 - a stage early - to let Stage 12 empty... The pace on 12 seemed to increase once all the BS around Squad 21 was cleared up...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KGentry Posted April 2, 2009 Share Posted April 2, 2009 (edited) This was my second DT match and I thought this year's match was as good or better than last year's. Here are some things I thought happened beyond the control of the match staff - - Really Bad Weather - Wind tunnel testing of shooters Putting on the second largest match in the US is no easy task. It is allot of work and a great deal of volunteered time to make the match happen. Getting experienced match staff and CRO&RO's to work the match is no easy task either. It takes 4-5 days of commitment and working stages for 2-3 days in whatever weather happens. Organizing the time frame of the match is real tricky and can be impossible depending on events that happen on stages that could not be planned for. How the match staff responds to those events is where the magic comes in. I think the DT match staff learned a couple of things at this match and will correct those unforeseen bumps in the road at the next DT 2010. I do have to say that I had an RO tell me that scoring on a certain stage for one squad on Friday was done differently than the rest of the squads in the match and that he would never work with that CRO again. That is unfortunate but yet again, beyond the control of the match staff and was probably not reported to them. I only bring that point up in order to make sure we all have a fair shot at getting the correct scores for all shooters. All the stages I shot were ROed by great people, friendly and responsive to questions. They worked hard for us and we returned the hard work with taping and resetting as quickly as we could. I want to drive home the point that putting on large matches is REALLY DIFFICULT and the staff do it as volunteers. We should all remember that and I am sure most all of us do. Thanks to DTR for another great match and we will see you next year! Edited April 2, 2009 by KGentry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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