"range is clear" when?

[Gary Stevens]

Then I think that is when you make a decision. You are the RO/CRO and in charge of the range. You could either say "Range is clear" and procede on, or you could say "I would rather not call the range clear with your hand still on the gun. If you will remove it until I can call it clear, then you can put your hand back on it if you wish."

Either way I think is acceptable. One you have a visusal reference, and the other you have an audible reference.

Too each his own.

[shred]

My problem is if we rely on the good ROs "just knowing" to do it right, sooner or later a poor RO (there aren't enough good ROs to go around) not paying attention will call clear when the shooter is still dinking with their holster (say it's a new or borrowed holster or they're fiddling with the lock or whatever). Do we then DQ the shooter because the RO said "range is clear" before they stopped fussing with the gun? The shooter will say "but I wasn't done holstering...", and now we have an arbitration-level disagreement...

The rest of the ULSC process is shooter-controlled (the RO gives the commands, the shooter does them when they are ready) and well-defined-- the unload process is spelled out, show clear is spelled out, hammer down is spelled out, but the holstering part is whenever the RO thinks it's done?

It's not a big deal, but one I think that could use some more thought next time we dink with the rules.

[pskys2]

Just remember unlike the actual shooting, the Range Commands and Safety Issues are not speed events, take as much time as needed and/or you're comfortable with.

Oh and watch out for the eager tapers who start forward before you're ready for them too, don't hesitate to call them back. Even as a competitor I watch for the eager ones, and been called back a few times myself.

Congratulation on taking the leap into RO'ing.

[kgunz11]

My problem is if we rely on the good ROs "just knowing" to do it right, sooner or later a poor RO (there aren't enough good ROs to go around) not paying attention will call clear when the shooter is still dinking with their holster (say it's a new or borrowed holster or they're fiddling with the lock or whatever). Do we then DQ the shooter because the RO said "range is clear" before they stopped fussing with the gun? The shooter will say "but I wasn't done holstering...", and now we have an arbitration-level disagreement...

The rest of the ULSC process is shooter-controlled (the RO gives the commands, the shooter does them when they are ready) and well-defined-- the unload process is spelled out, show clear is spelled out, hammer down is spelled out, but the holstering part is whenever the RO thinks it's done?

It's not a big deal, but one I think that could use some more thought next time we dink with the rules.

Can you show me that rule in the rule book? How can you DQ someone for "fussing with the gun"? If the RO calls RIC and the gun falls out it's not a DQ. When the competitor has the gun unloaded and IN the holster, is the range not clear?

[Gary Stevens]

So exactly how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

[lcs]

So exactly how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

I had to google that one. I will keep that saying for future use.

[LPatterson]

So exactly how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Probably depend on whether they were doing a square dance or the polka.

[Flexmoney]

Can you show me that rule in the rule book? How can you DQ someone for "fussing with the gun"? If the RO calls RIC and the gun falls out it's not a DQ. When the competitor has the gun unloaded and IN the holster, is the range not clear?

Guys...we have a recent (multi-page) thread on just that very topic. No need to duplicate that here again.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=79538

[kgunz11]

True Flex, certainly an interesting read, but to this point no one has been able to answer the correction in a definitive manner. Can we get some kind of ruling on it?

I was told you cannot go into arbitration and argue rather or not something really happened, but only rather or not it was an unsafe act. Arbitration is only good if you are allowed to arbitrate in the first place, but that is another story I am not allowed to talk about here.

[uscbigdawg]

So...off of this rule, can someone alleviate my stress now. Shooter, not on a stage, is walking around with his crap and drops his gun. RO comes over, clears it, bags it. Is THAT a DQ? Didn't used to be but now I'm concerned.

Rich

[kgunz11]

No Rich, it's not, as long as the RO picks the gun up for the shooter.

According to one definition of the word "draw", then yes, they are.

It sucks when someone can get DQ'd because the rules are so subjective in some cases, but written in stone in the eyes of others.

For example, can someone get DQ'd for drawing the gun uprange when by definition they are no longer facing up range? The rule book defines "up range" as shoulders being parallel to the rear berm. So if the person starts their draw as they are turning and are no longer facing up range, yet they have not broken the 180, can they still get DQ'd?

You're damn right they can, if you don't believe me I can let you talk to the shooter. The argument used to DQ her was that the gun lifted far enough out of the holster that the trigger was exposed, even though it had not cleared the holster or broke the 180. And by definition of "holster", a gun must have the trigger covered to be considered a legal holster. The moment the trigger clears the holster the gun is no longer holstered and thus by default must be "drawn".

By the way, the WSB required the shooter to be facing up range. The shooter was told to "make ready", and in this wanted to practice a turn and dry fire on the first target. Note, the gun is NOT loaded at this point. As the shooter grabbed the gun and began to turn to the first target, the scoring RO, who was not in a position to even see the gun, DQ'd her. Even though the RO running the shooter said they did NOT draw the gun.

You want to talk about a stinky situation, this is one of them. It's caused a large number of us to lose respect for a lot of people involved in this DQ. The MD would not even allow the shooter to arbitrate. Shooter was told they could not win, and they did not want the shooter to just "throw the money away".

On our next phone conversation, I'll give you all the details.

All this just to say that there is one CRO/DRL that says if the gun is not holstered it is in fact by default "drawn". I might caution you that there are RO's that have DQ'd a lot of shooters, and they might use that to their advantage in adding another notch in their belt.

[ima45dv8]

No Rich, it's not, as long as the RO picks the gun up for the shooter.

According to one definition of the word "draw", then yes, they are.

You lost me here. A dropped gun outside of a CoF is not the same as a Drawn gun outside of a CoF. Dropped guns can and should be recovered by an RO, and placed back into the shooter's holster by the RO (don't hand the gun to the shooter - actually holster it for them - is how the rule is written). That's not a DQ. A gun that is Drawn by the shooter outside of a CoF or a safe area is very different, and is a DQ.

All this just to say that there is one CRO/DRL that says if the gun is not holstered it is in fact by default "drawn".

Isn't that also the position taken by DNROI, as published in Front Sight?

I might caution you that there are RO's that have DQ'd a lot of shooters, and they might use that to their advantage in adding another notch in their belt.

Sounds like you have a pretty low opinion of ROs in general.

[kgunz11]

All this just to say that there is one CRO/DRL that says if the gun is not holstered it is in fact by default "drawn".

Isn't that also the position taken by DNROI, as published in Front Sight?

Can you quote that for me from the NROI website, I don't know where to find it.

I might caution you that there are RO's that have DQ'd a lot of shooters, and they might use that to their advantage in adding another notch in their belt.

Sounds like you have a pretty low opinion of ROs in general.

No, that is not the case at all, and I apologize if it came across that way. I really don't see how you could come up with that assertion, but I realize my communication skills are poor in text. I don't have anything against RO's, just have seen an abuse of authority with the given title, and see threads on here where people are quick to DQ a shooter without a rule in the current rule book to justify their DQ. To me, a DQ is a very serious thing.

[kgunz11]

You lost me here. A dropped gun outside of a CoF is not the same as a Drawn gun outside of a CoF. Dropped guns can and should be recovered by an RO, and placed back into the shooter's holster by the RO (don't hand the gun to the shooter - actually holster it for them - is how the rule is written). That's not a DQ. A gun that is Drawn by the shooter outside of a CoF or a safe area is very different, and is a DQ.

I said the definition of "drawn" I was given was the inverse of holstered. Holsters are defined in the rule book, draw is not. I was told if a gun was not holstered so that the trigger is covered by the holster it was "drawn".

I know this does not apply to someone dropping a gun, I'm not a total idiot even tho I play one on TV. Dropping a gun is just that, a dropped gun, and when it is done outside a CoF then it is no DQ as long as the shooter does not pick it up themself.

[ima45dv8]

Can you quote that for me from the NROI website, I don't know where to find it.

Nope. As I was taught, the NROI Rulings published on USPSA.org are reserved for situations that are so unclear as to require a definitive restatement. I know, if we had a perfect rulebook, the need would never arise, but it isn't perfect and the need occasionally does arise. What we see published in Front Sight each month are clarifications. Not as gray but still worthy of comment and they carry the full weight of the DNROI when presented there.

If that's incorrect I'm sure Gary or another member of the BoD will set the record straight.

From the Front Sight issue dated March/April 2004 (Volume 21, Number 2):

Question:

"At a recent state match I noticed several competitors "POPPING" their pistols while waiting to shoot. This entailed getting a grip and drawing the pistol so it cleared the holster safety mechanism (triggers exposed), but not far enough for the muzzle to clear the holster.

When I asked the competitors what they were doing, their reply was they had witnessed the "Big Guns" doing it at Area and/or National Championships.

My question is wouldn't this be a violation of safe gun handling? Is it being allowed at the Area and/or Nationals?"

Answer:

"If this is happening as you say at Area or National matches, it shouldn't be. Your local shooters may be under the belief that just because the gun doesn't clear the holster, it is not handling. However, the rule states that the trigger must be covered while holstered (Rule 5.3.6.5), thus, if the trigger is not covered, it is either an illegal holster, or in this case, the gun is not in the holster. If it is not in the holster, then it must be handling the weapon, which is against Rule 10.3.3"

=================

NOTES ---

His reference to 5.3.6.5 above is from the 2001 version of the USPSA rulebook and states, "A holster which does not completely cover the trigger of the handgun." That equates to 5.2.7.4 in the current 2008 edition and states, "A holster which does not completely prevent access to, or activation of, the trigger of the handgun while holstered."

Also, his reference to 10.3.3 above (from the same 2001 rulebook) states, "Handling a handgun at anytime except when in a designated safety area or on the firing line under the supervision of a Range Officer." That equates to 10.5.1 in the current 2008 edition and states, "Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command issued by, a Range Officer."

=================

I hope that helps illustrate that NROI's position on drawing a gun far enough to allow activation of the trigger is in fact a drawn gun.

[kgunz11]

Not really Mark, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, just want things clear. The above citing you listed is about gun handling. There is no wording there that would lead me to believe they are guilty of drawing the gun, just handling it. It even says something about the muzzle there, but there again they are not on the line or under supervision.

I would like to see "draw" defined in the rules.

Can you draw the gun while facing downrange with the muzzle pointing at the ground within 3' of the shooter and it not be considered breaking the 180?

BTW, in the case that YOU know I am talking about, the shooter was not handling the gun outside the supervision of the RO, so here a clear definition of "draw" is needed to determine how you would rule the shooter is DQ'd. I know I know, this seems like it is never going to end, I just would like to see someone show me in the rule book where the shooter earned a DQ.

[ima45dv8]

Well just how could someone possibly be guilty of handling a gun if it isn't drawn? You can touch it while it's in the holster until people start looking at you funny. No problem. But to 'handle' it, it must be drawn.

Really, these dots are not that far apart. I would hope anyone allowed to play with loaded firearms could connect the two.

[Gary Stevens]

Once again we can not have every possible thing listed in a book. As this forum proves, our shooters can come up with never ending scenarios that would need to be incorporated into a rule and a book.

The three feet from the feet does not apply when you are facing up range. To do so would be to sanction breaking the 180. Yes I know we make a provision for drawing and holstering when facing down range, but if it were not for that variance, many more shooters would be subject to a DQ. 10.5.6 specifies "when facing down range", nothing about facing up range.

Information provided in FS is guidance and clarifications of issues that have been brought to NROI's attention.

Interpretations posted on USPSA webpage are a step above guidance and clarifications and carry the same weight as written rules, unless overturned by the BOD. It is sort of like NROI is a "Court of Appeals" and the BOD is the "Supreme Court". When the Appeals Court rules, it is the law, unless overturned by the Supreme Court.

11.1.2 restricts arbitrations for a safety DQ to determine whether exceptional circumstances warrant reconsideration of the infraction of the disqualification. However, the commission of the infraction as described by the Range Official is not subject to challenge or appeal.

[Flexmoney]

I said we have another thread on this debate.

Get on it.

(I'll have to clean this mess up now...until then)

CLOSED.

[Singlestack]

There is new information on this subject. Please stay on topic.

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/Corrections%20t...uary%202008.pdf