Alan Adamson Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Ok, so I probably know the answer to this question, but curious of others take. Yes, I know, I'll only get out of this what I put into it.... But given the below, what would you do Gun of choice - Brand new XDM SW40 As a new entrant into the sport, would one be more likely to be more competitive in Production or Limited? Now before you answer, let's assume for production that I leave the gun stock. For limited, let's assume I do a trigger, sights, magwell and extended mags. I know the details like 10 rounds in production only, everyone shoots minor (might be a penalty shooting 40 in production until I get a 155/165gr minor load worked up). I'm not trying to become a pro, but I know me and the competitive side of me will take hold, I'll want to do good, will put in the practice necessary, etc. I suppose the question is "what is success", it's it winning matches, or is it having fun.... so for the sake of argument, let's say it's both ... it's got to be fun to stay involved, and hopefully more time under my belt will allow for winning matches. I just don't want to have to be up against "hired guns" everytime or it won't be fun... Does any of this argument make any sense? Or are you all simply going to say... Start at the bottom, have fun and work your way up to appoint where either you are competitive or you aren't having fun... See how I knew the answer ever before I asked. I am curious tho, it seems that around these parts, that the production classes are getting larger and larger and yet the Limited ones are staying the same or perhaps shrinking in size? Course it might be I haven't been to enough matches yet too... Anyway, figured I'd asked. I searched first, didn't find a similar question Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 If you are not yet reloading, don't let that stop you from shooting Production. You can get .40 minor loads from Atlanta Arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 So...are you asking which pond is the smallest and will make you feel better? Probably depends on your local area. If you are going to be shooting Major power factor ammo, then you'll most likely have more fun in Limited...high capacity and major scoring...less reloads to worry about, magwell... If you don't like the recoil (which...with technique...really isn't a factor)...then shooting Minor loads in production feels nice. (Lots of minor 40 loads to be found in the reloading section). Points down hurt twice as much at Minor and you will be doing more than twice as many reloads. I'd just go shoot and have fun. You'll figure out where you want to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Go to some matches, and see which division is most popular. For whatever reason, some clubs seem to be dominated by limited, others are open clubs, and some have more production shooters. And some don't really have any particular emphasis. If you want to WIN your division, look at the results of past matches and see which division has the weakest top dog. If you want to improve a lot, pick the division with the toughest competition. DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver_Surfer Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 If cost is a factor I'd recommend Production. That way you can save your money on all the bells and ... and buy more ammo to practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobobooie Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Ok, so I probably know the answer to this question, but curious of others take. would one be more likely to be more competitive in Production or Limited? Just my .02. If you see yourself as your only competition and strive for perfection from yourself, the results will speak for themselves. Any division can provide that challenge. Thus, they are all equally competitive. Good luck with your choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Honestly, as a brand-new competitor, assuming the club has a number of decent shooters in both divisions, you're not going to be "competitive" - if by that you mean near the top of the score sheet - in either for awhile. We can assume, unless you're related to someone who owns a castle somewhere, you're going to be reloading, so cost of factory (read: Major power factor) ammo is not a concern; you'll be handloading your ammo to either Major or Minor, depending on the division. I think it's going to come down to how many toys you want to hang on the gun (mag well, etc.) and how much recoil you want to put up with. Yes, points down hurt twice as much at Minor as Major - but then again, if you're firing Production that's going to be true for everyone in the division, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Honestly, as a brand-new competitor, assuming the club has a number of decent shooters in both divisions, you're not going to be "competitive" - if by that you mean near the top of the score sheet - in either for awhile. That is certainly true. And, really...nobody cares how the new shooter does...as long as they are safe and they have a good attitude. In fact, the new shooters that have a good attitude...that help out with setup and tear down...that lend a hand where they can to the rest of the volunteers... Those are the ones that are likely to get taken under wing and will shorten their learning curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 If you can get the mags up to 18+ rounds, you could be competitive in Limited. If you buy Atlanta Arms minor .40 you could be competitive in Production. When I say competitive, I mean that you're not being held back by your equipment like you would be if you were trying to shoot a Single Stack in Limited. Just keep in mind that for a while your scores won't even be remotely close to the top shoooters in your club. For a competitive person this means you're going to feel like you got your @ss kicked every match Eventually you'll start to catch up to those folks and maybe you'll get to beating them. At almost every club there are going to be a few people that are really, really, really good and the only way to beat them is to work hard, practice and hopefully get a mentor to help shorten your learning curve. Show up, be safe, have a good attitude, have a good time and it's likely that someone will step up and offer help anytime you need/want it and sometimes when you need it, but don't know you need it! R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted March 3, 2009 Author Share Posted March 3, 2009 If you can get the mags up to 18+ rounds, you could be competitive in Limited. If you buy Atlanta Arms minor .40 you could be competitive in Production. When I say competitive, I mean that you're not being held back by your equipment like you would be if you were trying to shoot a Single Stack in Limited.Just keep in mind that for a while your scores won't even be remotely close to the top shoooters in your club. For a competitive person this means you're going to feel like you got your @ss kicked every match Eventually you'll start to catch up to those folks and maybe you'll get to beating them. At almost every club there are going to be a few people that are really, really, really good and the only way to beat them is to work hard, practice and hopefully get a mentor to help shorten your learning curve. Show up, be safe, have a good attitude, have a good time and it's likely that someone will step up and offer help anytime you need/want it and sometimes when you need it, but don't know you need it! R, I think this is the answer I knew was true and I was waiting for confirmation of. I'm not expecting to go out and place in the top on the first, maybe not even 100th shoot, however, what I would like to understand is, that if I work hard, learn good habits, and practice, can I be competitive in limited (or production) without having to spend the huge bucks on gun/mods. So, if you'll allow, do you think the following equipment would be a limited factor to being competitive in limited (or production)? SA XDM 40SW - canyon creek trigger to 3# - canyon creek bomars and FO front (tbd on that as discussed in the other threads) - extended mags to 20+1 or 21+1 - Magwell either Canyon creek (if I want it perm), or pistolgear (if I want it removable so I could shoot production) (NOTE, yes I know there is a raging debate about trigger work in production and that new rules are forthcoming with *may* disallow) Or do you really have to go buy an Edge, Legend, or have something custom built? Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 If you can get the mags up to 18+ rounds, you could be competitive in Limited. If you buy Atlanta Arms minor .40 you could be competitive in Production. When I say competitive, I mean that you're not being held back by your equipment like you would be if you were trying to shoot a Single Stack in Limited.Just keep in mind that for a while your scores won't even be remotely close to the top shoooters in your club. For a competitive person this means you're going to feel like you got your @ss kicked every match Eventually you'll start to catch up to those folks and maybe you'll get to beating them. At almost every club there are going to be a few people that are really, really, really good and the only way to beat them is to work hard, practice and hopefully get a mentor to help shorten your learning curve. Show up, be safe, have a good attitude, have a good time and it's likely that someone will step up and offer help anytime you need/want it and sometimes when you need it, but don't know you need it! R, I think this is the answer I knew was true and I was waiting for confirmation of. I'm not expecting to go out and place in the top on the first, maybe not even 100th shoot, however, what I would like to understand is, that if I work hard, learn good habits, and practice, can I be competitive in limited (or production) without having to spend the huge bucks on gun/mods. So, if you'll allow, do you think the following equipment would be a limited factor to being competitive in limited (or production)? SA XDM 40SW - canyon creek trigger to 3# - canyon creek bomars and FO front (tbd on that as discussed in the other threads) - extended mags to 20+1 or 21+1 - Magwell either Canyon creek (if I want it perm), or pistolgear (if I want it removable so I could shoot production) (NOTE, yes I know there is a raging debate about trigger work in production and that new rules are forthcoming with *may* disallow) Or do you really have to go buy an Edge, Legend, or have something custom built? Alan Hey, Dave S has kicked quite a bit of butt with a pretty simple Glock in Production, Limited and Limited-10 so I don't see any reason why the SA would seriously hold you back in either division. You may eventually find that another platform is a better fit for you based upon a number of factors, but if the gun runs 100% (#1 priority by a mile), is reasonably accurate, fits your hand reasonably well and points reasonably well for you it's going to be a long time before the gun has much impact on your results. For me, I carry Glocks, but couldn't use one as a match gun because they simply beat my hands and fingers into a pulp. Anything over about 250rds and I'm experiencing some discomfort. I'll shoot all day long, but not with a Glock. For that reason, I'm looking at an M&P for Production. Neither one is a "better" gun, but one is definitely better for me as a match gun because I can practice with it a lot without having blisters, then calluses, and then calluses that break off and bleed while I'm shooting (all of the above happens to me with Glocks). Absent something like that it appears you'd be able to shoot either division for a long time before figuring out what the optimum setup is for you. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebg3 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I think you should shoot a few matches with what you have, production, and get a feel for the game and then decide what to do. It is easy to start with what you have and shoot production then transition to limited if you want. EG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris iliff Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) I think it took me almost 4 years to win a match outright. Maybe 1 1/2 years to win just my division. I always thought that If I had a "do-over" I'd start in production. I think that production is probably the least expensive and most intensive division. Plus, IMHO, that division will almost force you to do/learn the basics, ie., .... reloads, efficient stage movement, reloads, acceptable sight picture, reloads. You get up to where you are a high "C" or "B" shooter and you're consistent,.... well then you've done something and know something at that point. IMHO. Good luck!!!!!! edited to say: I'm an OPEN shooter. Sell a kid, or something,...... and join us!!!!! Edited March 4, 2009 by fourtrax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I think it took me almost 4 years to win a match outright. Maybe 1 1/2 years to win just my division. I always thought that If I had a "do-over" I'd start in production. I think that production is probably the least expensive and most intensive division. Plus, IMHO, that division will almost force you to do/learn the basics, ie., .... reloads, efficient stage movement, reloads, acceptable sight picture, reloads. You get up to where you are a high "C" or "B" shooter and you're consistent,.... well then you've done something and know something at that point. IMHO. Good luck!!!!!!edited to say: I'm an OPEN shooter. Sell a kid, or something,...... and join us!!!!! Single Stack probably does all that and then some...it's essentially all Virginia count shooting...but it's obviously not an option for the threadstarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcarter Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I would say go with production for now. Play in that field for a little while and work on your basics. Just my .02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) You keep asking if the "equipment" will hold you back. Matches are won before they start.. by the people that practice and train the best. Equipment is essential but superior practice is more so IMO. I am in a similar situation as you.... I'm using a G35 with a magwell, hicap mags and some grip tape and giving it a go. I am fortunate that I have the opportunity to practice with great shooters... like Flex said.. help out, get involved and you'd be surprised how many great people are willing to help the new guy. Good luck! Edited March 4, 2009 by lugnut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 Or do you really have to go buy an Edge, Legend, or have something custom built? Hell no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnote Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I would say go with production for now. Play in that field for a little while and work on your basics. Just my .02. You can always add on the extra's later if you want. Start production, reload some minor 40's and get a solid foundation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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