How do Saiga shooters load with a slug in the middle of a run?

[Benelli Chick]

I don't have a pony in this race, but I'm confused about the RECENT anti-Saiga thing.

My first major 3-Gun match was Rocky Mountain 2003. There were mixed slug and birdshot stages at that match, and basically, that was 7 years ago.

All my local matches have had a mix for the last 7 years, too. Many major matches I go to have had a mix!

How is this recent???

As far as loose ammo, that's just a mind F___ for everyone. I don't think anyone is anti-Saiga. I don't think most designers think about them at all.

As far as Open is Open, 2005 3-Gun Nationals, NO ONE could use a bipod for the standards stage, including Open. Sometimes people restrict these things. At FNH/CMMG this year, there was a stage where EVERY shooter started with just 8 rounds including Open.

No, other guns don't change kinds of ammo, but really, other guns can't. That's the cool thing about a shotgun. It shoots birdshot, slugs, buckshot. You can change chokes in between stages. You can't do that with any other gun.

Some course of fire limit rounds for EVERYONE. Some courses of fire require a mag change for everyone, even open shooters with magazines that hold 30 rounds for their pistol, have to change after 6 or whatever.

Saigas have advantages on some stages, tube feeders on others, and those wheel-gatlin gun type things, others. You have to go with what works for you, but the whole world is not against Saigas. Robert's is real cute...uh, I mean manly and handsome!!!

Just my $.02

P.S. Now you've done it! JJ's thinking about having you shoot regular ammo and then snakeshot with your pistol. You could reload, or candy cane...He really does hate snakes!!!!!!! And maybe simunition with your rifle. I should have kept my mouth shut!!!

So here's the plan. In the course of fire, there's a rubber snake on the ground (churned up soil, so if you shoot it with a bullet you don't hurt yourself) If you do shoot it with a bullet and miss, you're done with the stage and take all the appropriate penalties because you would be taken to the hospital. If you hit it in the head with a real bullet, you're allowed to continue with no penalty! He's giggling as I type. I refuse to tell the people at Rocky Mountain they need to bring snakeshot...maybe next year... Aargh!!!!!

Edited June 15, 2009 by Benelli Chick

[EkuJustice]

I like the saiga in open where it is right now. Put them in tactical and its buy one or stay home because your not going to be competative with one when you are loading them one at a time. With the new mag well that they have had come out where you can load it straight in like an ar instead of having to rock it in like the ak just makes the advantge even greater. The longer the stage the more of an advantage they are. They are really popular over seas and the outlaw matches where they dont have the capacity limit we do. At the outlaws where it is 8+1 on the start, and whatever after that the saiga goes 9 rounds to start then loads the drum in. On a long course of fire the guy with strippers loading them single would not have a prayer. Allowing them in anything but open would then turn tactical/limited into a shoot saiga or your wasting your money match.

[philg80]

I agree and disagree with what everyone is saying. First off, I have been shooting a Saiga for 4+ years. I shoot OPEN because ALL of my guns are OPEN. Here are my points below.......

1. I am not a conspiracy theorist. Stage design is stage design. Every platform has their own little adavantages. A tube gun is great for those stages where you need 1-2 rounds over your initial start. The Saiga is great if you have a long stage over 13 rounds or if you have a stage that at the beginning, end, or middle you have to load a complete magazine of a DIFFERENT round(slugs instead of birdshot or birdshot instead of slugs). Anything that does not require a reload then neither platform has a true advantage except which gun has the fastest cyclic rate and who is the better shooter. There are a few stage designers that do not like Saigas and they WILL purposely design a stage that hinders their use. If they are consistently setting these type stages up then call them out on it in front of a lot of people and they tend to change their habits. No one likes to have attention drawn to them if they are doing something socially unacceptable. If you do not want to draw attention then beat them on the stages you can win. All matches should have a variety of stages. If the stage designer is more worried on how to make a disadvantge for a certain platform then people are going to get bored with this type of match.

2. The guns have been around for a long time. They are just now getting the support from the industry that is allowing us to build these into WORKING competition guns. Most people don't realize, but the Saiga factory 8 rd mags cost $150 each when I first started shooting this gun. Also these guns are brought over in a "Sporting" configuration with a traditional style stock. The guns we are getting and shooting are a far cry from the guns allowed in European countries. Everything we are doing is trial and error to try and make these guns as competitive as we can. There are very few truly dedicated Saiga gunsmiths building for competion shooters. I can only think of three. You are not going to see a massive invasion of Saiga shooters.

3. The Saiga platform should be allowed in Tactical, but with a limited amount of conversion. If someone wants the adavantage of a Saiga, but for tactical class they should only be allowed to make a basic conversion. Pistol grip and fire control group, iron sights only (fiber optics if they choose), 8 round mag limit, and NO MAGWELL. Safeties and mag releases are inconsequential. They would be the same as DMW loading gates and charging handles on an 1100 or Benelli. At a local fun 3 gun we shoot basically USPSA rules, but we have 3-4 guys that have recently started shooting a Saiga in the match. The Saiga is the ONLY Open class gun they shoot. I let them shoot tactical because they have limited conversions and really do not gain any tactical adavantage from the Saiga platform. The rule would be simple to change and allow the very few shooters that would do this to use their Saigas. I say few because the average Tactical shooter is not going to spend $1100 + for a Saiga when a $600 Remington, a $900 Benelli, or a $1000 FNH would serve the purpose. Even without a conversion a Saiga is goint to run around $800 for a gun and 4 magazines and that is with no reliability work.

These are just my ideas. Yes with ALL of the upgrades a Saiga can be far and away a better platform for 3 gun competition, but it has to be in the hands of a shooter able to manipulate it and take advantages of the stages this gun was built to win.

Edited June 16, 2009 by philg80

[MRMAJOR]

First let me freely admit, I have several horses in this race.

A beloved Benelli that has never let me down (Originally bought because Bill Clinton wanted to make them illegal)

A true love of USPSA and desire to advance the sport.

And a fascination with Saiga Shotguns because they seem to have truly the most potential for what our sport is all about, a balance of speed, power, and accuracy. DVC forever!

But mostly my horse is the core value that our sport is about going the fastest you can without governors.

About the tactical, limited or class or whatever, I have no opinion because I frankly can’t fathom all the changing intricacies of class. Pb80s suggestions for class sound ok to me. Pb80 is right, for about $800 or less you can get a setup, box stock that will be extremely completive to say the least, so maybe it’s not fair for Mag and Tube loaders to go head to head.

But in Open there should be no favoritism in course design and sky’s the limit.

Benelli Girl and philg80 are right on.

And I LOVE Benelli Girls idea of a snake stage, Kill it or do not pass go.

(Do we PLEASE get to choose which weapon and load to start with? )

Philg80 is right on with his post. I think a really relevant point he made is there are only around 3 (and I don’t know who they are) good Saiga Meisters. Whoever they are, they are all making progress REALLY fast. And these guys have to overcome the federal import hurdle. And it’s hard to make a buck at it because it so labor intensive. If they can make a gun go faster, they already have enough hurdles let’s not make it harder for them with goofy stage design. These are the guys who have the most potential for increasing speed and giving us goodies.

But I think philg80 says it all when he says:

Yes with ALL of the upgrades a Saiga can be far and away a better platform for 3 gun competition

[grywlfbg]

I like the saiga in open where it is right now. Put them in tactical and its buy one or stay home because your not going to be competative with one when you are loading them one at a time

I find this whole "you must buy one or stay home" argument specious.

A Saiga-12 can be had for $559. That's cheaper than a Remington 1100 and WAY cheaper than a Benelli M2. Then most shooters tweak their shotguns w/ different sights, gunsmithing the bolts, loading port mods, etc, etc. Tactical shooters spending $2k on a raced-up M2 is quite common. So is it fair for a stock 1100 to compete against a Benny Hill M2? There's always an equipment race even within divisions.

I shoot a production pistol in 3-gun (because that's what I shoot in pistol matches) against more expensive Limited guns that shoot softer and carry more ammo. Do I complain? No, it's a choice I made. I have the option of buying a 2011 or whatever.

But back to shotguns... I'm an 1100 shooter but I say let the Saigas into Limited/Tactical Scope and see what happens (with limits of course like no comps, optics, etc same as for tube guns). I agree w/ the others, if you want to keep new technology out then shoot He-Man

Edited July 14, 2009 by grywlfbg

[Topmaul]

I have not been shooting much lately money has been a factor but so has time I am 46 years old and working on my MBA finished my BSBA in 2007 so time is one thing I don't have a lot of.

Yesterday I needed a "ME" day so I went to a local Tactical Shotgun Match nearly a third of the competitors were running Saiga 12 Shotguns Every one is getting on the band wagon now, there was a new guy who had never shot a match and did not even own a shotgun he was invited to give it a try and handed a Saiga 12 and he did very well with it no real problems other than what one would expect. Also a lady was there that had never fired a gun before and she did just fine with the Saiga 12

Gents like it or not the Saiga is a fact of life in the action shooting world better just get on the band wagon, I am now behind these new young compeitors are coming up fast!

What can be more "tactical" than a Saiga? How many Tactical small arms are out there that do not have a box magazine!

Another thing some of the competitors we knocking the Saiga yesterday I said wonder if the same arguements were made when Percussion caps first came in and the hard core flintlock shooters would make arguements like well what happens if you run out of caps? if you run out of flint you can always pick one up off the ground you know. To which I said if you run out of percussion caps your most likely out of ammo anyway so might want to run or pick up a big rock. My point is the Siaga is an advance not a novelty.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Topmaul

[GentlemanJim]

As a hard core Remmy shooter, I resisted this change...not for others but myself

At some point I just had to try it

Now I have In my mind solved the problems the Saiga had ...And am quite pleased with the performance .

The only remaining issue...Is slug drills and I have an idea that may pan out for that

And as to an equipment race...a stock Saiga is quite a bit less money that the other choices, and what top shooter is shooting a box stock gun anyway

I say let the race begin....I like a good race

Jim

[Wakal]

Taran Butler will be running a Dreadnaught Industries Saiga as soon as those loons finish building it for him. A Saiga that RUNS is the ticket

Alex

[Alaskapopo]

I've been looking at picking up a Saiga 12, but having to load and fire a slug in the middle of a run seems to be a good way for stage designers to mess with the magazine fed shotgun crowd. Anyone figure out an effective way of doing this?

Easy with a magazine coupler. This is what I use.

http://www.arredondoaccessories.com/category.cfm?cid=1004,2008&PID=jk29i1908juxqm&GID=

[Finbox]

I have a Tromix Sagia 8" that runs 100% At my local match, around 30 shooters, I asked if I could run a Sagia before I bought it, I did not want to spend that kind of $ without a place to shoot it in a match. They said "sure buddy, practice un jamming it" and laughed.

For 4 months it was the scourge of the cowboy bays. With a 20 round drum and a lot of ports my 8" Sagia was 20 sec faster than anybody.

Then the anti Sagia COF's started to show up. All shells in a ammo can loose at start etc.

Now I have a $2000 gun I hardly use anymore.

And the use of a Sagia was just for fun, I'm fast with a tube gun as well.

[toothandnail]

We have a coupler that puts a 5 round mag along side of our 12-23 round mag, if there EVER were more than 5 slug targets mixed with shot.

I can change the 5 to a 10.

Not a problem

[Alaskapopo]

You know you have good gear when people design stages to exploit any weakness they can find.
Pat

[SinistralRifleman]

Holy necropost!

[toothandnail]

Holy necropost!

I wondered HOW I could have missed this, and THREE pages ? ? ?

Then I looked at the date

[Alaskapopo]

Magazine coupler swap the mag over and rack it. Or just load the mag to where you know the slug is

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ranger6]

Alaskapopo is right on track about the magazine coupler. I got one from Arredondo at the Surefire World Multi-Gun this year. He makes great stuff and is a terrific supporter of our sport. Thanks Ralph!

Ranger6 (Jim Roberts)

[wgj3]

Looks like a few folk are over this day and running out of new Enos material to divert their attention away from the tasks of cleaning up and getting all the fam safely home...