How many rounds

[Strick]

I am sure this has been asked a bunch and I did some searches but did not find really what I was looking for. I am getting back to shooting after a few years off and this time around I want to shoot some IPSC matches as well as the IDPA stuff that I have already done.

Anyway, for IPSC and was wondering what the average round count is for an average stage/string is. Will the 14 rounds, or more if I get different base pads, be sufficient in a Para P14? I have had this gun for years and would like to use it since I have it, it will obviously make major PF easily and I have 5 or so mags already. I guess I could shoot my witness that I use for IDPA but it is only 9mm and I figure major is better than minor.

[JFlowers]

Strick,

Dick Cole, out of Charlotte NC, uses a P14 under USPSA Limited Rules. With Dawson basepads and modifying the followers he gets a normal 17 (45 ACP) in the mags. While not the 20-21 that the 40s get, its enough for him to be competitive as he wants to be. A typical stage is 24-32 rounds, so 17+1 to start with a mag change to 17 gives him plenty to run a stage and a third mag gives him planning flexiblity.

[tpcdvc]

I am sure this has been asked a bunch and I did some searches but did not find really what I was looking for. I am getting back to shooting after a few years off and this time around I want to shoot some IPSC matches as well as the IDPA stuff that I have already done.

Anyway, for IPSC and was wondering what the average round count is for an average stage/string is. Will the 14 rounds, or more if I get different base pads, be sufficient in a Para P14? I have had this gun for years and would like to use it since I have it, it will obviously make major PF easily and I have 5 or so mags already. I guess I could shoot my witness that I use for IDPA but it is only 9mm and I figure major is better than minor.

Stage round counts range from 8 to 32 rounds.

So, you would be fine shooting that gun in L-10 or Limited. However, you will be at a slight disadvantage shooting in Limited because most folks will be shooting 20 round mags in 40 S&W.

[Strick]

That doesn't seem to bad then. I wasn't sure if I would be stuck with 2 extra reloads or more using a .45 over a .40 in limited.

[Jimlakeside]

IDPA you are limited to division capacity (whatever your magazine will hold up to 10 rounds plus one in the chamber). In other words high capacity magazines in IDPA offer no advantage. Also IDPA doesn't have major or minor so shoot whatever gun you want.

[Strick]

IDPA you are limited to division capacity (whatever your magazine will hold up to 10 rounds plus one in the chamber). In other words high capacity magazines in IDPA offer no advantage. Also IDPA doesn't have major or minor so shoot whatever gun you want.

Yeah, that is why I shoot my 9mm Witness in IDPA with the 10 rnd mags I have for that. I was more asking about how far in the hole I would be with a P14-45 shooting limited in IPSC, doesn't seem like it will be to awful bad.

[Chills1994]

You'll be Okay... in field course type of stages where you will encounter 18 plus plus round counts there is typically enough room or time moving between arrays to get a reload or two in.

On the plus side, the .45 does punch a bigger hole and if you're shooting SWC's the hole is much more defined which makes scoring the targets easier and faster.

Yeah, you could shoot Limited 10 with it also, if you really think that having 3 less rounds in the gun is that big of a disadvantage. (that is if you do the Dick Cole style tweaking of the followers as mentioned above). Otherwise you're at a 5 less rounds in the gun situation vs. the STI/SVI .40 cal limited guys.

I have dabbled shooting my Beretta in 9mm with the 20 round Mec Gar mags in Limited. Yeah, at minor. Granted I am not taking the USPSA shooting world by storm, not by a long shot, but I have gotten in some local match stage wins that way.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Chills1994

[G-ManBart]

I guess I'll be the dissenting vote

In Limited you're going to be at a noticable, if not huge, disadvantage. It's not just that you're going to have maybe a max of 18 rounds in the gun compared with lots of folks that have 22 or 23, but rather it will limit your options for when you reload during a stage.

Why? I'm glad you asked...lol. The rules say no more than 8 shots should be required from any single position (not always followed for Level I matches, which is fine). Imagine a stage that has steel in the first arrary/position and you have two makeup shots. With an 18 round gun, even one makeup in the second array and you're going to run the gun dry and be forced into a static reload which is going to kill your run. Further, if it's a 32 round course you may have to do an extra reload to finish the second two arrays. People with a 22 round gun won't have that problem. Even with 3 or 4 makeup shots on the first two arrays they're still okay to reload between two and three and have enough to finish the stage without an extra reload.

In your position I'd shoot Limited-10 and not handicap yourself from the start. R,

[Chris iliff]

+1 G-ManBart, good analysis.

[konkapot]

Definately shoot L10. Shooting L10 also gives you good practice in breaking down stages.

FY42385

[Strick]

That is an interesting look at it, and I can see your point. Even if you are raining on my parade and bursting my bubble.

Maybe I will be OK in Limited...........I just won't miss. LOL

[Nik Habicht]

G-man makes some pretty good points --- now I'm going to make some counterpoints, not to pick on him, but to hopefully make you aware of some options.....

The rules say no more than 8 shots should be required from any single position (not always followed for Level I matches, which is fine).

I'm sorry --- no, that's never o.k. even at Level I matches. The stage may be set in a way that makes it desirable for everyone shooting an 8+ capacity gun to take more than 8 shots from a single position, but there must be an option for anything exceeding 8 rounds to be shot from elsewhere. Anything less is poor stage design and poor match administration, and should be gently course changed into actually following the rule book.....

Imagine a stage that has steel in the first arrary/position and you have two makeup shots. With an 18 round gun, even one makeup in the second array and you're going to run the gun dry and be forced into a static reload which is going to kill your run.

Spot on --- except that if you're going to play in Limited with an 18 round gun, you'll be smart enough to figure out that if you've taken two make-up shots on the first array, that it would be prudent to reload while moving to the next position. Production/L-10/SS and Revolver shooters do this all the time --- sometimes going so far as to reload a slide-locked gun to 11 (two mag changes) while on the move between positions. You can learn to deal with that issue.....

Further, if it's a 32 round course you may have to do an extra reload to finish the second two arrays.

If the stages are designed well, this really shouldn't be an issue --- you should find plenty of opportunities for an extra mag change or two,even if you shoot a different plan than most of the other limited shooters....

People with a 22 round gun won't have that problem. Even with 3 or 4 makeup shots on the first two arrays they're still okay to reload between two and three and have enough to finish the stage without an extra reload.

Agree totally as to the facts; not entirely buying that it's an unsurmountable obstacle....

In your position I'd shoot Limited-10 and not handicap yourself from the start. R,

In your position, I'd shoot what appeals to me --- and worry a lot less about people suggesting that I'm handicapped. Make your choices, accept the consequences, and see how far you can go ---- it might take you a little while to get the hang of it, but if you can ignore the naysayers, you can find your path.....

That is an interesting look at it, and I can see your point. Even if you are raining on my parade and bursting my bubble.

Maybe I will be OK in Limited...........I just won't miss. LOL

Sounds like you'll have fun, no matter what you decide.....

[slip knot]

Nik

Great match yesterday, even in the mud...

[yuthh]

I am sure this has been asked a bunch and I did some searches but did not find really what I was looking for. I am getting back to shooting after a few years off and this time around I want to shoot some IPSC matches as well as the IDPA stuff that I have already done.

Anyway, for IPSC and was wondering what the average round count is for an average stage/string is. Will the 14 rounds, or more if I get different base pads, be sufficient in a Para P14? I have had this gun for years and would like to use it since I have it, it will obviously make major PF easily and I have 5 or so mags already. I guess I could shoot my witness that I use for IDPA but it is only 9mm and I figure major is better than minor.

Stage round counts range from 8 to 32 rounds.

So, you would be fine shooting that gun in L-10 or Limited. However, you will be at a slight disadvantage shooting in Limited because most folks will be shooting 20 round mags in 40 S&W.

+1

[G-ManBart]

G-man makes some pretty good points --- now I'm going to make some counterpoints, not to pick on him, but to hopefully make you aware of some options.....

The rules say no more than 8 shots should be required from any single position (not always followed for Level I matches, which is fine).

I'm sorry --- no, that's never o.k. even at Level I matches. The stage may be set in a way that makes it desirable for everyone shooting an 8+ capacity gun to take more than 8 shots from a single position, but there must be an option for anything exceeding 8 rounds to be shot from elsewhere. Anything less is poor stage design and poor match administration, and should be gently course changed into actually following the rule book.....

Imagine a stage that has steel in the first arrary/position and you have two makeup shots. With an 18 round gun, even one makeup in the second array and you're going to run the gun dry and be forced into a static reload which is going to kill your run.

Spot on --- except that if you're going to play in Limited with an 18 round gun, you'll be smart enough to figure out that if you've taken two make-up shots on the first array, that it would be prudent to reload while moving to the next position. Production/L-10/SS and Revolver shooters do this all the time --- sometimes going so far as to reload a slide-locked gun to 11 (two mag changes) while on the move between positions. You can learn to deal with that issue.....

Further, if it's a 32 round course you may have to do an extra reload to finish the second two arrays.

If the stages are designed well, this really shouldn't be an issue --- you should find plenty of opportunities for an extra mag change or two,even if you shoot a different plan than most of the other limited shooters....

Nik,

I hope I didn't sound like I was endorsing having more than 8 shots required from any position...just trying to say that at a Level I match they can deviate slightly from the rule book. I've seen it at almost every club match I've been to recently and that's a handful of clubs over a couple of states. It may not be "right" but it does seem to happen a lot.

The part about realizing you've had extra shots and then just adding a reload between the first and second array will work, but it still costs more time than not having to reload. I'm pretty sure Jake DaVita said he's timed himself and a reload costs him half a second even while moving. Considering that Jake can likely reload a heck of a lot faster than most folks out there, I'd say that for the average new shooter it might well be more like a second to a second and a half for each reload, even while moving. So, if we throw in one and maybe to reloads per stage due to a couple of makeup shots, it could easily be 2-3 seconds extra compared with the same guy shooting a gun with 20-22 round mags. That's a significant amount of time to give up to the other shooters in the division.

I wouldn't tell anyone that they shouldn't shoot something that appeals to them...whatever gets them out and shooting is great, but any time I talk to folks starting out in our sport I suggest picking something that appeals to them and doesn't have potential frustration factors built in from the start. Most people seem to want to be able to reasonably compare their performance against the other folks in their division and starting out in Limited with a 18rd gun is very likely to leave them wondering "how much better could I do if I had a 21-23rd gun like the other shooters". Just a thought... R,

Edited February 11, 2009 by G-ManBart

[SharonAnne9x23]

as the owner of a P14-45 I say put on the Dawson mag pad and go for it. You are reentering shooting after a sabbatical and trying a new game. I see no reason to not try the new division with your Para. You will not be at any major disadvantage.

Go for it, have fun!

[Catfish]

Bart makes some very good points, but I wouldn't let that deter you from shooting what you've already got.... Get some Dawson basepads and go with it.

[Flexmoney]

I hope I didn't sound like I was endorsing having more than 8 shots required from any position...just trying to say that at a Level I match they can deviate slightly from the rule book. I've seen it at almost every club match I've been to recently and that's a handful of clubs over a couple of states. It may not be "right" but it does seem to happen a lot.

Nope, Level I matches cannot deviate slightly from the rule book.

Having more than 8 shots that have to be taken from a position/view...and cannot be taken elsewhere...is illegal stage desing at any level of match. (and this thread is one reason that is a good idea...so a shooter doesn't feel they need to go buy the wiz-bang highest capacity gun that is out there)

[G-ManBart]

I hope I didn't sound like I was endorsing having more than 8 shots required from any position...just trying to say that at a Level I match they can deviate slightly from the rule book. I've seen it at almost every club match I've been to recently and that's a handful of clubs over a couple of states. It may not be "right" but it does seem to happen a lot.

Nope, Level I matches cannot deviate slightly from the rule book.

Having more than 8 shots that have to be taken from a position/view...and cannot be taken elsewhere...is illegal stage desing at any level of match. (and this thread is one reason that is a good idea...so a shooter doesn't feel they need to go buy the wiz-bang highest capacity gun that is out there)

Sure they can. It's pretty clearly spelled out that certain things for Level I matches aren't required, but are required for higher level matches. For example:

"2.1.8.5.1 Level I matches are encouraged but not required to

strictly comply with this requirement. The written stage

briefing may prohibit competitors from engaging certain

target(s) which may be visible prior to activation until

the operation of the activating mechanism has been initiated

(see Rule 9.9.4)."

More to the point of round counts:

"1.2.1.3 “Long Courses” in Level III or higher matches must not require

more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construction

must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single

location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in

the course of fire from any single location or view."

It's pretty clear from this that in Level I and II matches you can exceed 32 hits required. That's not hits per position, but it's still a deviation from the standard rules.

Level I matches aren't required to be "sanctioned" matches. I don't know about where everyone else shoots, but in nearly every single local club match that I've been to in the past couple of years there has been at least one stage with something that doesn't fit the rules....ten shots from a position or something similar. Obviously, that hasn't been the case at any of the Level II or higher matches.

I would have to disagree that the rules in place are there to influence almost anything in Limited Division other than the absolute minimum...no comp, no scope, no thumb rest, 141.25mm mag....that's it. If someone wants to avoid buying that high-capacity whiz bang gun they have four other divisions they can compete in and do so with total parity. Revolver, SS, L-10 and Production....all are (or can be) affordable and have essentially no equipment race issues.

If someone wants to be competitive in Limited they're going to have to keep up with the Joneses at least to a certain degree. I don't care how good somebody is, they're not gonna win the Limited Nationals with an 18-round gun when other guys have 23-round guns.

[Nik Habicht]

Nik,

I hope I didn't sound like I was endorsing having more than 8 shots required from any position...just trying to say that at a Level I match they can deviate slightly from the rule book. I've seen it at almost every club match I've been to recently and that's a handful of clubs over a couple of states. It may not be "right" but it does seem to happen a lot.

I didn't read it as an endorsement. If you're seeing it at every club match lately though, that's something your section coordinator should be aware of and working to eliminate....

I wasn't trying to pick on your post, in fact I agree with virtually all of your points --- especially for those competing at the highest levels. I did want to throw out a counterpoint, only because I've seen plenty of shooters at club matches, who are there more for fun, than they are to win. I'd hate to see someone not give it a try, because they became convinced that they needed more gun to play. Heck, I've been to club matches in these parts, where Dave Olhasso has whupped everyone else shooting a production gun --- o.k. so maybe Open wasn't represented by the best talent in the area, but if he can get it done with 10 rounds of minor, that says something about competition at the club level too. And I get that'll vary quite a bit from club to club....

[Flexmoney]

It's pretty clear from this that in Level I and II matches you can exceed 32 hits required. That's not hits per position, but it's still a deviation from the standard rules.

No.

It IS the rule...as written. It's not a local free-for-all.

Level I and Level II are now allowed to go over 32 rounds total. That is not a deviation (therefore implied consent to throw out the other rules). It is a written rule.

What is not allowed...is going over 8 shots that can only be seen from one position.

[G-ManBart]

Nik,

I hope I didn't sound like I was endorsing having more than 8 shots required from any position...just trying to say that at a Level I match they can deviate slightly from the rule book. I've seen it at almost every club match I've been to recently and that's a handful of clubs over a couple of states. It may not be "right" but it does seem to happen a lot.

I didn't read it as an endorsement. If you're seeing it at every club match lately though, that's something your section coordinator should be aware of and working to eliminate....

Nah, I didn't feel picked on

It's something I've seen in three different sections last year alone so it's not just here. Maybe we should start a poll about how often people see stages that are not 100% within the rules? Most people don't know all the rules perfectly (me included, but I do try to keep learning) and I know that stages get set up that are close, but not quite within the rules pretty regularly. For a club match how many folks are measuring to make sure that a static target isn't significantly beyond 45* from vertical or whether a fault line is really 3/4" or 1.5" (depending on the surface)? I doubt almost anybody is doing every little thing like that all the time. Again, I'm not saying that's right, just that from experience I know it's the way things often happen. R,

[G-ManBart]

It's pretty clear from this that in Level I and II matches you can exceed 32 hits required. That's not hits per position, but it's still a deviation from the standard rules.

No.

It IS the rule...as written. It's not a local free-for-all.

Level I and Level II are now allowed to go over 32 rounds total. That is not a deviation (therefore implied consent to throw out the other rules). It is a written rule.

What is not allowed...is going over 8 shots that can only be seen from one position.

"2.1.8.5.1 Level I matches are encouraged but not required to

strictly comply with this requirement.

Again, the rule states otherwise, but USPSA has said Level I matches don't have to comply with the requirement. It's still considered a requirement or they'd call it a suggestion. I never said it was a free-for-all and I've never seen anything really, really bad like rule deviations that were safety oriented.

If a match isn't officially sanctioned, there's nothing keeping clubs from setting up stages that aren't 100% in compliance. Technically I guess that makes them USPSA-style matches, but I'm inclined to believe it's a pretty darned common practice.

Again, I'm not advocating this, I'm just saying I know it happens frequently. I can't count the number of times I've seen four paper and one steel (or similar) from one position at a local match. That's just one thing...if we get into fault lines and shooting boxes and vision barriers, etc I'm willing to bet that the number of stages not completely in compliance would skyrocket. Obviously that isn't going to happen often at Level II and up matches because the clubs have the time and personnel to check every little detail. Lots of clubs have limited time and manpower and I'm sure that drives a lot of what happens.

Regardless, to the point of the original thread (since I don't want to get yelled at by the biggest of the big mods ) my main point was simply to suggest that even when stages are set up to be entirely within the rules, an 18-round gun is at a noticable disadvantage shooting Limited...for a variety of reasons. To compare it, who in their right mind would try to be competitive with a Production gun that only held 9 rounds? Just one round can, and sometimes will, make the difference between a good run and disaster...heck, I've seen plenty of 21-23 round Limited guns run dry with the very last shot

[Nik Habicht]

For a club match how many folks are measuring to make sure that a static target isn't significantly beyond 45* from vertical or whether a fault line is really 3/4" or 1.5" (depending on the surface)? I doubt almost anybody is doing every little thing like that all the time. Again, I'm not saying that's right, just that from experience I know it's the way things often happen. R,

I'd hope the match director and stage designers were aware that the 45 degree rule only applies to classics now.....

Hang the metric upside down, if you want.....

[ima45dv8]

Well, somebody has to say it....

In the Atlanta (GA) area, you rarely see a stage that isn't rule compliant. We're literally up to our ears with experienced match staff and competitors. Stages that are non-compliant, like ones that violate the requirement for the maximum number of shots required from a given location generally get corrected before a match can start just from the folks wandering the stages before the shooter's briefing (they're often SST shooters, too). I try to do my part by looking for 'bugs' at the matches I attend since some of them ask me to serve as RM for the match. Shoot-Through's and WSB issues are way more common mistakes than the Rounds Per Position limitation.

It's not seen as a chance to go running up the range road yelling and waving arms or anything like that. We just point out the situation to the MD and make corrections before the match begins. The local MD's where I shoot generally appreciate the input. Those that don't we hold 'em down and tickle them until they see the light.