gunner40sw Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 What if you go to a match and you put down your a u classification when your really a B class and then you win the match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Gunner, The outcome varies from region to region, and a lot depends on the size and prominence of the match. If it was a local club match it's possible nothing would happen, although I suspect there'd most likely be groans of "grand-bagging" and questions like "Who the hell is that guy?". If it was a major match in a larger region, you can expect to be automatically classified according to your actual result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 gunner, like vince said, no big deal at a local match. if this is a big match, say like the nationals, a state match, or area championship, the stats crew would check his or her classification with USPSA headquaters and put him/her in that class. remember this, if the person is classified in one division, doesn't mean that they are classified in all 5 divisions. i'm have a master class in open and limited, but i'm not classified in production or revolver. now if your buddy wins the match, he's only winning one division. if he is unclassified, he still wins the the division and whatever goes to the winner is his. now, if he doesn't win the division he gets nothing, prize table wise and class prize because he is not "classified". i believe this is how it works. hope this helps. lynn jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4444 Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 That situation happens quite a bit. If I'm not mistaken, Leatham isn't classified in Production H4444 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THS Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Although it happens, It should be as the books says now, "You can't be more than one class lower than your highest classification." Lynn goes to a shoot in with a revolver, I'm putting him in A, as his highest class is M, limited. Just because Rob doesn't have 4 classifiers on record doesn't make him true unclassified newbie! Just my thoughts! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner40sw Posted September 4, 2003 Author Share Posted September 4, 2003 Thanks for the info guys. It was our club match and some body from out of stat shoots in it and wins. He is listed as U in limited. When I look up his number he is a B shooter in limited and an A shooter in open. I suppose the main thing I don't like is having it look like I was beat by a U shooter. Ego thing I guess and if your a certain class shooter why just not be honest about it. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 What if you go to a match and you put down your a u classification when your really a B class and then you win the match? When I do the scores, it doesn't matter what class you write on your scoresheets. I always update the classifications from the latest file on the USPSA web site before I calculate the scores. So as long as I have the correct USPSA number, the classifications will all be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 tom, Lynn goes to a shoot in with a revolver that'll never happen!! ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Just because Rob doesn't have 4 classifiers on record doesn't make him true unclassified newbie! You mistake is the assumption that U means newbie. It means exactly what it says - unclassified, the shooter doesn't not have a sufficient number of classifiers on file to be classified in that division. Don't read more than that into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THS Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 KB38S, I made no assumptions, and he IS classified in at least one other division...... So the fact that TGO isn't a newbie is EXACTLY why he should be classed one below his highest, and NO LOWER, EVER. Classes are supposed to keep equal skill sets working against equal skill sets for comparison purposes, and in the context of the original post my statement is a fair comparison. The shooter was not any more unclassified than I am. Maybe this is too personal for me. When I was the OIC of the USMC Rifle Team I would get 20 or so shooters for the summer season. Most of them had been training daily for up to 4 months, and all had been through a selection process that selects the top 10 percent after 4 weeks, and then the top 10% of that group 4 weeks later. We would shoot our first NRA event of the year and I entered all on my unclassed shooters as Masters. They have the skills and experience and have no business taking awards from marksmen, sharpshooters and experts. Nothing burned my butt more that watching a military shooter win the junior awards at the nationals in the 97 time frame! This guy was 20 years old, serving on a full time shooting team, and entered as a junior. What a joke and insult to those in their teens struggling to find time to shoot and train on the weekends. Maybe USPSA should make it policy you can't enter in any class more than 1 below your highest no matter if you have 4 on file in a particular division or not. I know it's a small thing, but the devil's in the details! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 When I score and enter the data, like rhino, i update from the webpage...all I look for on the sheet is what division they are shooting in and if it's your first or second gun. Lot's of folks have old labels they have not updated or bothered to change. If I have the division you are shooting in, the updated info gives me the rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 What if you go to a match and you put down your a u classification when your really a B class and then you win the match? That would be misrepresenting your classification. I'll bet that the shooter put down his classification somewhere...the stats person likely missed it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h4444 Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 THS, Why class someone with zero classifiers in one division below their current highest,,,,, Well,,,,what if they are actually better in that division? Say B is their highest classification in Limited,,,,they've shot zero classifiers with a revo, but would really be an M with a revo, but they just happened to come across a special classifier match when they only had their limited gun with them. Probably isn't fair to that person to assign them a C when you could only advance one class at a time,,,,then you'd have someone by default underclassed from the begining and in some cases for us that don't travel, or get to shoot many classifiers to begin with we'd be hard pressed to get the classification up to where it should be in any reasonable amount of time. In large tournaments, there is no advantage to shooting U, you're shooting against the big dogs for prizes if that's why you're competing. Locally that may be another story, but if guys stay at U for a long time locally,,,,,they'll be figured out soon enough. H4444 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 I made no assumptions, and he IS classified in at least one other division...... So the fact that TGO isn't a newbie is EXACTLY why he should be classed one below his highest, and NO LOWER, EVER.Classes are supposed to keep equal skill sets working against equal skill sets for comparison purposes, and in the context of the original post my statement is a fair comparison. The shooter was not any more unclassified than I am. Maybe this is too personal for me. When I was the OIC of the USMC Rifle Team I would get 20 or so shooters for the summer season. Most of them had been training daily for up to 4 months, and all had been through a selection process that selects the top 10 percent after 4 weeks, and then the top 10% of that group 4 weeks later. We would shoot our first NRA event of the year and I entered all on my unclassed shooters as Masters. They have the skills and experience and have no business taking awards from marksmen, sharpshooters and experts. Nothing burned my butt more that watching a military shooter win the junior awards at the nationals in the 97 time frame! This guy was 20 years old, serving on a full time shooting team, and entered as a junior. What a joke and insult to those in their teens struggling to find time to shoot and train on the weekends. Maybe USPSA should make it policy you can't enter in any class more than 1 below your highest no matter if you have 4 on file in a particular division or not. I know it's a small thing, but the devil's in the details! Tom I made no assumptions, and he IS classified in at least one other division...... So the fact that TGO isn't a newbie is EXACTLY why he should be classed one below his highest, and NO LOWER, EVER.Except that the rules specify that if a shooter does not have at least 4 valid classifiers on file with the USPSA for a given division, then the shooter is unclassified in that division. Unclassified is not necessarily a lower classification than any other. You can just as easily consider U as something higher than GM. As far as it affects a match, the only thing a U shooter can win is High Overall. There's no such thing as High Unclassified. When it comes right down to it, if a shooter is unclassified, either you win High Overall or you're shooting for fun.Classes are supposed to keep equal skill sets working against equal skill sets for comparison purposes, and in the context of the original post my statement is a fair comparison. The shooter was not any more unclassified than I am.If the shooter was indeed classified according to the rules and entered as U, then he's a cheater and deserves shame and derision.Maybe USPSA should make it policy you can't enter in any class more than 1 below your highest no matter if you have 4 on file in a particular division or not.For the most part, I agree with that. I think it simplifies things. Write your Area Director. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRNinTX Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 If you are shooting as a U, you are shooting against the field. In my experience it works against the new shooter worse than the experienced shooter without a classification in a given division. When we first started shooting, I tried to make four matches in the first month in order to have a classification for a major match. Made the four matches but one club did not get their scores turned in and BJ and I had to shoot against everybody. That's the reason we try to have a Special Classifier Match during the first couple of months each season at our club, so the new shooters who want to give larger matches a try will be classified. My thoughts on Jrs is; once they reach GM they can no longer compete for the High Jr. regardless of age. Let's face it, if you are a GM, you are shooting to win the match. This is coming from a guy with two Jr shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunner40sw Posted September 5, 2003 Author Share Posted September 5, 2003 Well I just recieved the hard copy of our match results and the shooter I have inquired about is still listed as U Limited. I looked up his USPSA number and he is listed as a B class limited. I also noticed that his membership expired 14 months ago and he has not renewed it. What does that do to the mix besides making me even more mad. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 If he's not a member, especially not for over a year, he has no classification, regardless of his past classifications. USPSA is probably just holding onto his classification records in case he re-joins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 I've found that using EZWinScore to update the shooters is not always accurate. I always update, but it keeps showing me and another guy as having expired memberships and at least one other as being one class lower than he really is. If I look up their numbers as individuals, the correct info appears. Kind of odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 JFD, You should report that to the USPSA. They can't get the problems fixed unless they are aware of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 It's been reported. I did that before I discovered the individual data was correct. Sort of wierd to see that your membership has expired when you know it hasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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