Cy Soto Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 The recoil spring on my wife's 1911 had to be replaced and I decided to go with a lighter spring. This gun had a 17# spring and it worked fine but the boss wanted something that produced less perceived recoil with. I bought a 14# and a 12.5# and tried them both yesterday at the range. The 12.5# feels really nice and the sights track nicely but I could hear a metal "clang" with each shot. I then tried the 14# hoping that this would be the answer but I can still hear that metal "clang" when the slide recycles. I looked at the frame and slide and I was unable to see any marks on either of them (but then again, I only shot about 20 rounds total). (Pistol info: Springfield 1911 .40S&W shooting Major). Is this noise normal with lighter springs or will it eventually cause damage to the gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 (edited) shok-buff you can damage the gun if you go too light though Edited January 7, 2009 by HoMiE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichiganShootist Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 In answer to your question YES--- To all of the above. I saw a shooter crack the frame of a Colt NM Gold Cup...with one round of hardball and an 11 pound recoil spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Make sure the spring fits! If the spring is too long, it'll be going solid, and that can damage stuff in a big hurry... Otherwise, a 12# spring in a .40 at nominal major (say 170 PF) shouldn't be any issue. I run that in my Trojan, actually. I know of guys that run far lighter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 I know of guys that run far lighter That's why she wanted to try out a lighter spring. We know a GM in my club that runs a 9# on his L-10 .45ACP and his pistols shoots like a .22LR. But he is using a faster powder and 230gr bullets so I'm not sure this is a good comparison to her .40S&W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I know of guys that run far lighter That's why she wanted to try out a lighter spring. We know a GM in my club that runs a 9# on his L-10 .45ACP and his pistols shoots like a .22LR. But he is using a faster powder and 230gr bullets so I'm not sure this is a good comparison to her .40S&W. I run 11# springs in a lightened slide 2011 40cal. I used to like 14# in a full weight slide but it has been a long time since I played with it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Just check that the spring isn't coil binding (solid) with the slide all retracted. If it's not, you should be fine. I run a 12.5lb spring in my Trojan with 17+pf ammo and it's no problem at all...very nice combo and smooth feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 The 12.5# feels really nice and the sights track nicely but I could hear a metal "clang" with each shot. I then tried the 14# hoping that this would be the answer but I can still hear that metal "clang" when the slide recycles. You're saying you can hear this "clang" over the sound of the gun firing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 YES--- To all of the above. I saw a shooter crack the frame of a Colt NM Gold Cup...with one round of hardball and an 11 pound recoil spring. There must have been a great underlying flaw in that frame, then. Or the damage was already there and he only noticed it then. Otherwise, cracking the frame on a 1911 with one round of .45 ball and an 11-pound recoil spring makes absolutely no sense at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 shok-buff Don't care for them, frankly. And considering there are shooters in the world with 100,000+ rounds through 1911s with no buff that still run great, you can't really make a case for needing them. you can damage the gun if you go too light though Are you sure? In one of Patrick Sweeney's articles he talks about his friend, pistolsmith Ned Christiansen, who wondered what would happen to a 1911 that was fired with no recoil spring at all. So he Rube Goldberged up a machine that cycled the slide on a 1911 with equivalent force to firing, and then let it cycle a gun with no recoil spring in it at all, 30,000 times. When he was done, he examined the parts and found no damage at all. I think about this every time someone says, "I can't run a light recoil spring in my 1911/Glock/etc. I'd damage the gun." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 The 12.5# feels really nice and the sights track nicely but I could hear a metal "clang" with each shot. I then tried the 14# hoping that this would be the answer but I can still hear that metal "clang" when the slide recycles. You're saying you can hear this "clang" over the sound of the gun firing? It's kind of hard to explain... I am not sure if I am hearing it or "feeling" it, but there is definitely a metallic "sound" to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I would almost bet that gun has a recoil spring that is too long and is stacking. A 5in .40 should be fine with a 12.5 spring.----------------Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 I would almost bet that gun has a recoil spring that is too long and is stacking. A 5in .40 should be fine with a 12.5 spring.----------------Larry So, if this is what is causing it, I should be fine just snipping off a coil or two? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 You need to measure it before clipping to find out if it is stacking, check it after clipping one coil, check it after clipping two coils if needed and check it again just to be sure after clipping an addition coil after it stops going solid. Search on my username and 'coil bind' for instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scirocco38s Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 I get the recoil spring setup for the way I like to shoot the gun. I have a limited gun with over 80k thru it and it runs an 11 lb spring, sometimes a 9lb nothing has broke in it yet and the only part that seems to have a problem is the bomar pin. Replace it with piano wire and that problem is resolved. In my open gun I run a 7 or 8lb spring depending on the gun. If I end up breaking something in the gun I replace it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 8, 2009 Author Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) I looked in the packet where the coils came in and, lo-and-behold, there were instructions in there; go figure... I followed the instructions provided by ISMI and ended up cutting off about 1¾ coils. I'll take it to the range tomorrow to see if that took care of the problem. Edited January 8, 2009 by Cy Soto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 shok-buff Don't care for them, frankly. And considering there are shooters in the world with 100,000+ rounds through 1911s with no buff that still run great, you can't really make a case for needing them. you can damage the gun if you go too light though Are you sure? In one of Patrick Sweeney's articles he talks about his friend, pistolsmith Ned Christiansen, who wondered what would happen to a 1911 that was fired with no recoil spring at all. So he Rube Goldberged up a machine that cycled the slide on a 1911 with equivalent force to firing, and then let it cycle a gun with no recoil spring in it at all, 30,000 times. When he was done, he examined the parts and found no damage at all. I think about this every time someone says, "I can't run a light recoil spring in my 1911/Glock/etc. I'd damage the gun." I am wondering,..was there no damage to the slide release lever? I find when I ran too light of a spring,..it would feel like the gun is taking a beating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Hepworth Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Everytime I tried really light springs,.I felt as though the slide was a little sluggish. If the gun was really clean,.I did not have a problem,..but felt as though the slide was hesitant in locking up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom S. Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 shok-buff Don't care for them, frankly. And considering there are shooters in the world with 100,000+ rounds through 1911s with no buff that still run great, you can't really make a case for needing them. you can damage the gun if you go too light though Are you sure? In one of Patrick Sweeney's articles he talks about his friend, pistolsmith Ned Christiansen, who wondered what would happen to a 1911 that was fired with no recoil spring at all. So he Rube Goldberged up a machine that cycled the slide on a 1911 with equivalent force to firing, and then let it cycle a gun with no recoil spring in it at all, 30,000 times. When he was done, he examined the parts and found no damage at all. I think about this every time someone says, "I can't run a light recoil spring in my 1911/Glock/etc. I'd damage the gun." I can't let this go unchallenged. Not that you read it - I believe that - but their results. Repeatedly striking metal to metal with force will have an effect. If the metal is soft, it distorts or mushrooms. If it's hard, it cracks. In between you can get either, or tearing. Depending on the metal properties and any heat treating, you can get by for a finite amount of time, but sooner or later, something will happen. Repeated impacts will change the molecular properties of steel, and not for the better. This is not based on supposition. As a fomer die maker (now retired) I had lots of experience working with steels, including machining, welding, heat treating, and repeated useage/abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 How fast would the slide impact a frame w/ no spring? Factory 1911 slide is what? 12-13oz, or ~5500 grains. Gotta be a way to figure out the force of the impact. How fast did the guy in the test have the slide crash into the frame? Who has a high-speed camera and wants to video a shot w/o a spring to measure slide velocity?? I'm thinking a gun shouldn't bust on 1 round w/o a spring (and definately not w/ an 11lb spring), but should live "significantly" [whatever that means] shorter life. rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Repeatedly striking metal to metal with force will have an effect. If the metal is soft, it distorts or mushrooms. If it's hard, it cracks. In between you can get either, or tearing. Depending on the metal properties and any heat treating, you can get by for a finite amount of time, but sooner or later, something will happen. Repeated impacts will change the molecular properties of steel, and not for the better. This is not based on supposition. As a fomer die maker (now retired) I had lots of experience working with steels, including machining, welding, heat treating, and repeated useage/abuse. Depends on how much force you're talking about, though. You would have to reach a certain threshold impact level before there's any real risk of distortion/cracking/tearing--as least in the real world, right? 1911 pistols don't generate nearly as much impact force as most people think. If they did, those little plastic buffers would never survive more than one shot. Not to mention the fact that you couldn't hang onto the gun to shoot it. If you really think about it, the fact that a plastic or fiber buffer can even survive for awhile is the strongest argument that they don't serve any real protective purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raudi Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 How fast would the slide impact a frame w/ no spring?Factory 1911 slide is what? 12-13oz, or ~5500 grains. Gotta be a way to figure out the force of the impact. How fast did the guy in the test have the slide crash into the frame? Who has a high-speed camera and wants to video a shot w/o a spring to measure slide velocity?? I'm thinking a gun shouldn't bust on 1 round w/o a spring (and definately not w/ an 11lb spring), but should live "significantly" [whatever that means] shorter life. rvb If we don't take friction or a spring into account, we get the following: With a factor of 180 a 180gr projectile would travel at 1000 fps. If the slide weighs in at 5500 grains, we get an approximate speed of 32 fps for the slide. Without springs and without friction of any kind, that would be the speed, the slide impacts the frame. Of course, even if we assume, that there is no recoil spring in the gun, there would still be the mainspring to overcome, but 32 fps at least gives us a maximum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver_Surfer Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 Just wonding, how far away is your brass flying with the lighter spring? I gage my spring weight from where my brass lands. I try to keep it with-in 10 feet and not closer than 2 feet from my gun. I use a 14# in my 40 S&W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvb Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 How fast would the slide impact a frame w/ no spring?Factory 1911 slide is what? 12-13oz, or ~5500 grains. Gotta be a way to figure out the force of the impact. How fast did the guy in the test have the slide crash into the frame? Who has a high-speed camera and wants to video a shot w/o a spring to measure slide velocity?? I'm thinking a gun shouldn't bust on 1 round w/o a spring (and definately not w/ an 11lb spring), but should live "significantly" [whatever that means] shorter life. rvb If we don't take friction or a spring into account, we get the following: With a factor of 180 a 180gr projectile would travel at 1000 fps. If the slide weighs in at 5500 grains, we get an approximate speed of 32 fps for the slide. Without springs and without friction of any kind, that would be the speed, the slide impacts the frame. Of course, even if we assume, that there is no recoil spring in the gun, there would still be the mainspring to overcome, but 32 fps at least gives us a maximum. Before I posted I ran similar numbers but as if a 230gr ball at 900 fps and came up with 34 fps, but things like the hammer/mainspring, disconnector, oil/grease made me wonder if that was too simplistic... rvb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted January 8, 2009 Share Posted January 8, 2009 The recoil spring you use should be chosen to balance against your grip. The goal is to have the front sight raise and return to a perfect sight picture. The front sight shouldn’t return high (too light of a spring) or dip low then return to the correct height (too heavy of a spring). If the slide spring is balanced to your grip the sight should lift then return directly to its level position. Everyone’s grip is different so which lb slide spring you need is unique to you. All you can do is take a selection of slide springs to the range and test fire each one until the front sight tracks as it should. Keep in mind that you have to keep your grip consistent for this to work. If you want to change how the recoil is felt then play around with different weight bullets and burn rate powders. Lighter bullets will have a sharp recoil and heavy bullets will have a dull thud recoil. I would suggest trying 200gr bullets then pick a slide spring that balances the front sight return to the shooters grip. The key words here are “The Shooters Grip”, not your grip. If your lady is shooting the gun then she needs to shoot it while trying to find the recoil spring that works the best. You could tune the recoil spring weight that works good for you, but that will probably not work well for her. You will find that a more solid grip requires a stiffer recoil spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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