I just don't get it,am I missing something?

[Bodine]

This may be a stupid question,but why is the 40 S&W cartridge the caliber of choice in USPSA/IPSC shooting? What advantages does it offer over the 45 ACP?

I have pistols chambered for both,my .40's hold 16 and my .45's hold 13. To me,the recoil of the .45 is so much more pleasant than the recoil of the .40,ie the 45 is a push where as the .40 is snappier when both are loaded to the same major power factor,the 40 has to be loaded to near maximum chamber pressure to make major,but the 45 can be downloaded and still make major..less chance of a kaboom. I use 180's in the 40 and 200's in the 45.

My pistols are XD (m) in 40 and XD 45 Tactical and service in 45.

Like I stated earlier,this may be a stupid question,but I cannot see what the 40 offers over the 45 for competition,I can shoot my 45's faster and more accurately than my 40's, this based on actual times in matches.

Thanks in advance

[Nik Habicht]

Capacity --- .40s in race guns (and even Glocks) can now deliver 20/21+1; .45s are limited to about 17/18 +1. The capacity makes a difference, especially if there's steel involved.....

Comparing Factory .40 to .45 shows a pretty harsh difference, factory .40 is a little unpleasant to shoot. Reloaded to power factor .40 is a whole lot more pleasant......

Cost is also a factor as .40 heads are cheaper than .45....

But basically it comes down to capacity....

[Bodine]

Capacity --- .40s in race guns (and even Glocks) can now deliver 20/21+1; .45s are limited to about 17/18 +1. The capacity makes a difference, especially if there's steel involved.....

Comparing Factory .40 to .45 shows a pretty harsh difference, factory .40 is a little unpleasant to shoot. Reloaded to power factor .40 is a whole lot more pleasant......

Cost is also a factor as .40 heads are cheaper than .45....

But basically it comes down to capacity....

That's true on capacity and factory loads,however, when I load both to the same power factor,the .45 is still so much more pleasant,even with the heavier bullet. As far as cost,it amounts to only $4.00 per 1000 between .40 and .45 from where I purchase bullets from

Thanks for the help!

Edited December 31, 2008 by Bodine

[al503]

Shooting limited 10 with a .45 is always an option.

[Bodine]

Shooting limited 10 with a .45 is always an option.

Great point! thanks!

That's what I do with both my .40 and .45,I can consistently turn faster times with the .45 than I can the .40 when both are loaded to power factor.

[al503]

Shooting limited 10 with a .45 is always an option.

Great point! thanks!

That's what I do with both my .40 and .45,I can consistently turn faster times with the .45 than I can the .40 when both are loaded to power factor.

If you're shooting 180 grain bullet, you can also try a 200 grain bullet in .40. That will definitely help you get more of a push, closer/more similar to the .45.

[Bodine]

Shooting limited 10 with a .45 is always an option.

Great point! thanks!

That's what I do with both my .40 and .45,I can consistently turn faster times with the .45 than I can the .40 when both are loaded to power factor.

If you're shooting 180 grain bullet, you can also try a 200 grain bullet in .40. That will definitely help you get more of a push, closer/more similar to the .45.

Never thought about that! Can I load the 200 grains in the .40 to the same OAL..I am using 1.130 with the 180's,without bulging the case?

I am limited to 1.135 maximum due to the xdm magazine.

[maineshootah]

Capacity --- .40s in race guns (and even Glocks) can now deliver 20/21+1; .45s are limited to about 17/18 +1. The capacity makes a difference, especially if there's steel involved.....

Comparing Factory .40 to .45 shows a pretty harsh difference, factory .40 is a little unpleasant to shoot. Reloaded to power factor .40 is a whole lot more pleasant......

Cost is also a factor as .40 heads are cheaper than .45....

But basically it comes down to capacity....

That's true on capacity and factory loads,however, when I load both to the same power factor,the .45 is still so much more pleasant,even with the heavier bullet. As far as cost,it amounts to only $4.00 per 1000 between .40 and .45 from where I purchase bullets from

Thanks for the help!

3 "extra" rounds in the .40 mag will save 1 second at a minimum off your time when compared to the .45 shooter who does not have them and has to reload for the final shot(s). A single second could account for several places down in the stage standings.

Welcome to the arms race.

D V C

[uscbigdawg]

There is NO reason why you can't shoot a 45 in Limited. Rarely (and I mean damn rare) that you're going to have a series of arrays where you're going to be at a disadvantage of the capacity of a 45 over a 40. Is it nice to have the extra little guys in there to help? You bet your butt, but there's absolutely ZERO reason why a 45 isn't just as viable as a 40 in Limited.

Rich

ETA: It's a fact that reloads on the move, done properly can be done with no major effect of time on the stage.

Edited December 31, 2008 by uscbigdawg

[Bodine]

This is true on capacity,this is why I shoot limited 10 to even out the playground,at least for my reload ability! LOL!

Edited December 31, 2008 by Bodine

[al503]

Never thought about that! Can I load the 200 grains in the .40 to the same OAL..I am using 1.130 with the 180's,without bulging the case?

I am limited to 1.135 maximum due to the xdm magazine.

I dunno. That might be pushing it depending on the powder you're using. You might check out a couple of reloading manuals for a sanity check.

[AlamoShooter]

I don't shoot much limited, but with 40, 38 rev and 38 super I can stock one size primer and never have to change my loader. I can load 38 and 40 with the same shell plate on the 650 and switch and load as needed

[Jman]

Shoot what you got. The capacity thing can effect M/GM class shooters. They win by just fractions in the big matches. But, for the great unwashed masses, that being us it's nothing to be concerned about.

Reality is .40 S&W is to Limited what 9mm is to Production. With a few exceptions.

Jim

[kgunz11]

I guess recoil is a matter of opinion. My .40 loads feel softer and track better than my .45. I use 180gr MG bullets in .40 and 230 gr in the .45. I shoot .40 because I shoot Limited Division and I can load way more .40's for the same cost.

[technetium-99m]

The really cool thing about a 45 is that every so often you will get an extra point or two because the hole in the target is bigger. Is this a "gamer" statement?

The cool thing about 40 is that you can shoot in every division except for open and maybe revolver and be completely competitive without ever changing your press around (1 caliber for production/limited/ss/limited-10/and revolver if you have a 610). Heck, depending on equipment you could shoot em all without ever changing anything but your powder charge if it creams your twinkie.

GT

[SharonAnne9x23]

at the very top of Ltd division, where the air is VERY thin, the decreased barrel torque imposed by the .40 caliber bullet, does make a difference in how rapidly a GM can re-acquire the iron sights and shoot another A. For those of us down in the flat land where the air is thick, it makes NO difference.

[RIIID]

With the .40 in an XD/m you can load to 1.155 and you won't have an issue. With the XDm in .40 with CC extended base pads you can load 21 rounds and the mag fits in the gauge. Now you are at the same capacity as the rest of the Limited gun platforms.

Rich

[Flexmoney]

There is NO reason why you can't shoot a 45 in Limited. Rarely (and I mean damn rare) that you're going to have a series of arrays where you're going to be at a disadvantage of the capacity of a 45 over a 40. Is it nice to have the extra little guys in there to help? You bet your butt, but there's absolutely ZERO reason why a 45 isn't just as viable as a 40 in Limited.

I disagree with that...on a number of points.

[Flexmoney]

ETA: It's a fact that reloads on the move, done properly can be done with no major effect of time on the stage.

That may be a fact, but it's not a reality.

[Flexmoney]

at the very top of Ltd division, where the air is VERY thin, the decreased barrel torque imposed by the .40 caliber bullet, does make a difference in how rapidly a GM can re-acquire the iron sights and shoot another A. For those of us down in the flat land where the air is thick, it makes NO difference.

I'm throwing a flag on that one too.

I've never had a converstion with any other GM's along that line of thinking.

[Flexmoney]

Shooting limited 10 with a .45 is always an option.

Great point! thanks!

That's what I do with both my .40 and .45,I can consistently turn faster times with the .45 than I can the .40 when both are loaded to power factor.

As kgunz11 said, some people prefer a snappier recoil and some prefer a slower rolling recoil. However, the shooter ought to be able to overcome that.

You are probably looking at a difference that is about 25-40% load development and experimentation ...with the rest (majority) of the difference being shooter technique.

40 is kind in Limited because it makes Major and gives the most capacity. Enough capacity that you have choices on where to do the reload. Extra rounds so you aren't tight. Two mags gets your through a field course...with steel. One mag gets your through two arrays (of eight rounds each plus one in the pipe). Extra rounds for make-up shots.

[B.Reid]

Shooting limited 10 with a .45 is always an option.

Great point! thanks!

That's what I do with both my .40 and .45,I can consistently turn faster times with the .45 than I can the .40 when both are loaded to power factor.

As kgunz11 said, some people prefer a snappier recoil and some prefer a slower rolling recoil. However, the shooter ought to be able to overcome that.

You are probably looking at a difference that is about 25-40% load development and experimentation ...with the rest (majority) of the difference being shooter technique.

40 is kind in Limited because it makes Major and gives the most capacity. Enough capacity that you have choices on where to do the reload. Extra rounds so you aren't tight. Two mags gets your through a field course...with steel. One mag gets your through two arrays (of eight rounds each plus one in the pipe). Extra rounds for make-up shots.

I agree with Flex here. Most of what we as shooters is done with a preference toward a particular caliber, whatever the reason. I personally believe that the .40 is the only way to go. My preference. I can shoot Limited and L10 with just a drop in my powder charge. I use the same powder (TiteGroup), primer (WSR) and projectile (M.G. 180 FMJ) for both. Their are no magic loads, just good ones, some better than others. I've used the same gun (5" STI classic) and load from C class up to #11 in the top 20 for M class. I had a top GM tell me one time that it's the Indian and not the arrow and I've tried to remember that every time I get the itch to either change my load or try a new gun. I personally prefer a snappier load and have trained myself on how fast I can pull the trigger, depending on distance, and have 2 A hits or an A and a C. The time in this sport comes not so much from shooting as it does from movement. Economy of motion I believe is the phrase. There will always be a gap so that a reload can be done while moving. The .40 gives me that extra buffer should I need it on round count which is always a plus. It will always come back to preference. Why not choose the gun that gives you the most options then find 1 load that you like and practice your butt off in addition to shooting EVERY match available to you?

[G-ManBart]

There is NO reason why you can't shoot a 45 in Limited. Rarely (and I mean damn rare) that you're going to have a series of arrays where you're going to be at a disadvantage of the capacity of a 45 over a 40. Is it nice to have the extra little guys in there to help? You bet your butt, but there's absolutely ZERO reason why a 45 isn't just as viable as a 40 in Limited.

I disagree with that...on a number of points.

+1

Every club I've been to seems to have a slightly different flavor as far as how they set up their stages, but last year I shot at 10 different clubs in 7 different states and I would have to say in almost every case each match has had at least one or two stages where a Limited shooter using a .45 would have had to reload where someone with a .40 wouldn't need to. There were even more stages where the extra rounds in a .40 would let you reload in a different, often better, point during the stage or allowed you the flexibility to run the stage in more than one way.

I think it was Matt Cheely, but it may have been Jake DiVita that said a reload, even while moving, costs him half a second...why bother giving the competition half a second for free?

[ima45dv8]

There's only three reason's you would run .40 instead of .45 in USPSA Limited division.....

1) Capacity,

2) Capacity,

and, 3) Capacity

That's not Gami-ness,. . . . .that's the most options-per-magazine.

The more initial options you have for dissecting a stage the better.

[el pres]

A couple of things need mention, $ of brass and availability is a big one 45 vs. 40 !!

Also, what powders are you useing, 40 can be tamed down with different powders like Tightgroup

,WST, N320, and if your really daring, Clays, Fast powders under a heavy bullet.... acually, scratch any

thoughts about the Clays as you are loading to standard OAL's. Kaboom !!

A thing I learned about recoil is it only compares to what you have been shooting and what your expectation

of recoil is. If you shoot a lot of soft .45 and then pick up a .40, it could feel harsh, snappy, less controlable.

But if you decide to put the .45 away for a while and shoot a couple thousand rounds a your decided upon

load of .40, you will acclimate to the recoil and build a timing to it. The .40 will then feel normal and who knows,

the .45 may then feel slow and sluggish to you. I went through just such a transformation, so much so that 180's

have become slow and pushy for me and I now shoot 155's.. As we routinely rant, "pick one, and practice

with it".. You can also change a lot of the feel of recoil by respringing the gun, higher weight spring will give more

of that slow boing feel.

Oh ya, one more thing, capacity is the reason. If we could get 9mm safely to major and without a comp to tame all that gas

push then Limited would be all 9mm. 140mm magazine would then give you 23,24,25 !! .40 is the smallest cartridge in

diameter to make a controlable uncompensated major PF ...

Edited January 3, 2009 by DIRTY CHAMBER