.38SC brass interchangibility?

[Fullauto_Shooter]

I recently purchased a quantity of .38SC brass that has several other types of brass mixed in. Can I reload and use these other types of brass along with the .38SC or can I expect this to cause reliability issues? Other headstamps include:

.38 TJ

.38 Super Rimless

9mm SuperComp

Thanks

[boz1911]

Maybe?? All the others listed are rimless brass with very slight differences. It will depend on how tolerant your gun's extractor is. I'd probably sort by type and try each in practice first before using in a match. My Bedell gun will run all of those and 38 super. The super is not 100% and I only fired some leftover brass I had. I now feed it only 38 SC.

[al503]

I think you'll have issues with the 9supercomp. I wouldn't load too many of those for testing just in case.

[AlamoShooter]

I think the brass is thiner in the 9super comp ,= when I size it the bullet will fall into the brass with no friction.

[XRe]

9 Supercomp is 9x23 (with slightly different internal dimensions). Get rid of that in a huge hurry. It will not be happy in your Super gun.

Funnily enough, I'm doing a big test on brass, right now. The extractor rim dimensions on TJ are different from Supercomp, but sectioning the cases looks (to the eyeball) like the two are constructed the same internally, with TJ losing some "meat" above the extractor groove due to the difference in the extractor groove cut. Its enough of a difference that it can theoretically cause problems in some guns - my guns have all run both types with no issue (and will also run Lapua 38 Super - which is actually a rimless case - and Armscor 38 Super RL). I didn't have any new Lapua to test and section, but I'm doing the Armscor stuff, and am also doing Remington .38 Super +P for comparison.

If anyone has any brand new Lapua, and wants to send me 15 or so, I'd be happy to throw them in the mix

I have no idea what ".38 Super Rimless" is??? .38 MCM is brass that Matt McClearn had done a while back that was a .38 Super with the rim trimmed down. Armscor's headstamp reads "AP 38 Super RL" (AP is Armscor Precision, IIRC). Lapua's just says "Lapua 38 Super".

Edited December 1, 2008 by XRe

[Fullauto_Shooter]

9 Supercomp is 9x23 (with slightly different internal dimensions). Get rid of that in a huge hurry. It will not be happy in your Super gun.

Funnily enough, I'm doing a big test on brass, right now. The extractor rim dimensions on TJ are different from Supercomp, but sectioning the cases looks (to the eyeball) like the two are constructed the same internally, with TJ losing some "meat" above the extractor groove due to the difference in the extractor groove cut. Its enough of a difference that it can theoretically cause problems in some guns - my guns have all run both types with no issue (and will also run Lapua 38 Super - which is actually a rimless case - and Armscor 38 Super RL). I didn't have any new Lapua to test and section, but I'm doing the Armscor stuff, and am also doing Remington .38 Super +P for comparison.

If anyone has any brand new Lapua, and wants to send me 15 or so, I'd be happy to throw them in the mix

I have no idea what ".38 Super Rimless" is??? .38 MCM is brass that Matt McClearn had done a while back that was a .38 Super with the rim trimmed down. Armscor's headstamp reads "AP 38 Super RL" (AP is Armscor Precision, IIRC). Lapua's just says "Lapua 38 Super".

Thanks for the reply Dave. Guess I'll have to go back through and sort out all the 9mm SC (9x23) stuff - damn, that'll take a while. I was hoping the answer would be "38 SC and 9mm SC are interchangable", but I'm glad I asked the question. Better safe than sorry.

I'll load up the TJ stuff and see if it works with my 38SC extractor. I also found some 38 Super Lapua brass in the mix and sorted it in with my 38 Super stuff - not knowing that it was actually a rimless case. Guess I"ll have to resort that into the rimless pile.

When I said .38 Super Rimless, I was referring to "AP 38 Super RL". Is this a rimmed or rimless case? I sorted them into the 38 SC pile thinking they were rimless. ARRGHH - this Open Gun business is a pain in the ass.

Final question - are load data for all these cases pretty much interchangable? I.E. - is load data for .38 Super, .38 SC, .38 TJ, and AP 38 Super RL - all basically the same? Obviously, I'll have to chrono to get definitive data, but I'm looking for your historical observations.

Thanks,

Doug

[shooterbenedetto]

MAKE SURE YOU ARE USING EGW RESIZING DIE!!

OR you will have some bulging cases.

[AlamoShooter]

Load data we are all way past load data. I can not remember seeing a load data that was Major.

I cull out all the Lapua and Armcor that stuff is Bad Mo-Jo in my bag.

Watch when you are loading , if the bullet drops into the case when you set it on top = cull it out.

The brass is part of your racing formula.

" If Your Gona Run Cool, You Gotta Run On Heavy Fuel"

[Jeff686]

I run 38SC from Starline and 38RL from Armscor in my Gold Team. No EGW undersize die necessary. I think that if you don't need it, don't get one. Gotta have a reason before getting one.

[XRe]

When I said .38 Super Rimless, I was referring to "AP 38 Super RL". Is this a rimmed or rimless case? I sorted them into the 38 SC pile thinking they were rimless. ARRGHH - this Open Gun business is a pain in the ass.

No, its really not. You're just currently ignorant... "AP 38 Super RL" is rimless. "AP 38 Super" is not - its regular Super brass.

Final question - are load data for all these cases pretty much interchangable? I.E. - is load data for .38 Super, .38 SC, .38 TJ, and AP 38 Super RL - all basically the same? Obviously, I'll have to chrono to get definitive data, but I'm looking for your historical observations.

Pretty much is - the gun will affect it more than the case, and obviously, you'll need to tune the load for your gun, but they should give you some starting points. Typically, I'd expect a regular Super to take about 2 tenths more of a given powder than the rimless variants, give or take, as it appears to have a slightly larger volume (though in trying to measure volume, I ran into some obstacles - namely that one drop of water is apparently more than the difference between the two...)

MAKE SURE YOU ARE USING EGW RESIZING DIE!!

OR you will have some bulging cases.

Why do people keep spreading this dogma about Super? This - in my opinion - is bunk. I've resized all kinds of random brass off the range floor and had nary an issue with Dillon dies. Even the Super cases that I picked up that had been shot in a reamed out 9x19 chamber that had a serious bulge to them dropped into a case gauge after passing through Dillon's sizer.

[XRe]

I cull out all the Lapua and Armcor that stuff is Bad Mo-Jo in my bag.

Best time to cull on a regular basis is before the brass gets tossed in your brass bag Just FWIW... do it up front, save time later. Buying or finding a bulk load of brass does lead to some sorting time, unfortunately, but its a one time "expense", and must be figured into the "cost" of the "cheap" brass

[racegun9]

No, its really not. You're just currently ignorant... "AP 38 Super RL" is rimless. "AP 38 Super" is not - its regular Super brass

Not exactly. The early batch's of AP 38 Super rimless was labeled "AP 38 Super" same as the semi rim marking.

It wasn't until later on that they added the "RL" to keep it from being so confusing.

You could drop the case in a chamber guage backwards to tell, or almost spot them by eye after seeing both.

[al503]

I like Lapua brass. It's very durable (more so than Starline.)

Hornady TJ and Lapua require about .2 grains less than Starline supercomp and AP RL.

I don't know about Starline TJ however.

[XRe]

Not exactly. The early batch's of AP 38 Super rimless was labeled "AP 38 Super" same as the semi rim marking.

It wasn't until later on that they added the "RL" to keep it from being so confusing.

I forgot about that "early batch" stuff... but still, I find it far easier to just discard anything labeled "AP 38 Super" than trying to determine if its really rimless or rimmed... Now, if you were running .38 Super, you might just discard anything labeled "AP" and be done with it

Re: Lapua being more durable than Supercomp, or TJ needing less powder... I don't know... TJ uses the same load w/ the relative same velocities in my gun. Lapua's primer pockets seem to get really strange after a while - they seem to get tighter/shallower. Definitely not as smooth to load on the press. With my loads, a cracked or wornout case in Supercomp is so rare, I hardly call them not durable I haven't run enough Lapua - and never run any from brand new - to actually make a comparison on my end (see comment above). I can say, though, that for the price difference between the two... I can buy an awful lot of Supercomp

[edwin garcia]

9 Supercomp is 9x23 (with slightly different internal dimensions). Get rid of that in a huge hurry. It will not be happy in your Super gun.

Funnily enough, I'm doing a big test on brass, right now. The extractor rim dimensions on TJ are different from Supercomp, but sectioning the cases looks (to the eyeball) like the two are constructed the same internally, with TJ losing some "meat" above the extractor groove due to the difference in the extractor groove cut. Its enough of a difference that it can theoretically cause problems in some guns - my guns have all run both types with no issue (and will also run Lapua 38 Super - which is actually a rimless case - and Armscor 38 Super RL). I didn't have any new Lapua to test and section, but I'm doing the Armscor stuff, and am also doing Remington .38 Super +P for comparison.

If anyone has any brand new Lapua, and wants to send me 15 or so, I'd be happy to throw them in the mix

I have no idea what ".38 Super Rimless" is??? .38 MCM is brass that Matt McClearn had done a while back that was a .38 Super with the rim trimmed down. Armscor's headstamp reads "AP 38 Super RL" (AP is Armscor Precision, IIRC). Lapua's just says "Lapua 38 Super".

Dave,

Let me know how your Armscor test comes up. I've tried Armscor RL and so far not quite satisfied with it's durability. I bought it cheap though but in hindsight, I should have spent that amount in Starline SC.

Edwin

[al503]

I've tried Armscor RL and so far not quite satisfied with it's durability. I bought it cheap though but in hindsight, I should have spent that amount in Starline SC.

Edwin

x2. Order of preference from good to not so good: Hornady TJ, Lapua 38 super, Starline SC, AP RL. Best bang for the buck is Starline.

[Jeff686]

I've tried Armscor RL and so far not quite satisfied with it's durability. I bought it cheap though but in hindsight, I should have spent that amount in Starline SC.

Edwin

x2. Order of preference from good to not so good: Hornady TJ, Lapua 38 super, Starline SC, AP RL. Best bang for the buck is Starline.

Starline now makes TJ too!!!

[larry cazes]

MAKE SURE YOU ARE USING EGW RESIZING DIE!!

OR you will have some bulging cases.

Been shooting 38SC for 3 years now and have NEVER needed an EGW. These cases are very strong and I just dont see enough case head expansion to cause a problem when resized with the dillon standard die. I wonder how many people just don't understand how to setup the die?

[Jeff686]

MAKE SURE YOU ARE USING EGW RESIZING DIE!!

OR you will have some bulging cases.

Been shooting 38SC for 3 years now and have NEVER needed an EGW. These cases are very strong and I just dont see enough case head expansion to cause a problem when resized with the dillon standard die. I wonder how many people just don't understand how to setup the die?

Some say that the EGW can get down lower on the brass and help keep a symetrical shape. It is supposed to help keep the 'banana' shape out of the stack of ammo in the magazine. I've never needed it, and I can load 28 in my big stick without failures. Did have one nosedive this last match, but it was a 1st for me.

Some info from the Tanfoglio shooters here: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...62126&hl=tj

[XRe]

Let me know how your Armscor test comes up. I've tried Armscor RL and so far not quite satisfied with it's durability. I bought it cheap though but in hindsight, I should have spent that amount in Starline SC.

I'll probably have enough data to do a Front Sight article out of it - at least, that's the intention. But I'll definitely update you, one way or the other.

I was hoping to be able to use Armscor stuff as "throw away" match brass (and Starline for practice). New or once fired, leave it on the stage, etc, etc. My understanding is that Armscor new stuff is up in the $100/K range, now?? That makes it 25% cheaper than leaving Starline on the ground in the same condition. Unfortunately, without even shooting the stuff, I've found some disconcerting things with the brass. What I'm trying to determine now is how much of an effect those things would actually have. I know of some very skilled, very successful folks using this brass successfully, so...

[Ron Ankeny]

I bought 5,000 pieces of Lapua several years ago to replace my Starline SC when it wears out. From my testing, the Lapua brass does take less powder (.3 in my loading) to make the same power factor. At the time, Lapua was cheaper than Starline if you bought directly from the importer in lots of 5,000 pieces or more. I have 10 loadings on the Starline brass of 10.1 grains of VV 3N38 under a 124 MG so I suppose I ought to toss it all and switch to the Lapua brass.

[larry cazes]

I bought 5,000 pieces of Lapua several years ago to replace my Starline SC when it wears out. From my testing, the Lapua brass does take less powder (.3 in my loading) to make the same power factor. At the time, Lapua was cheaper than Starline if you bought directly from the importer in lots of 5,000 pieces or more. I have 10 loadings on the Starline brass of 10.1 grains of VV 3N38 under a 124 MG so I suppose I ought to toss it all and switch to the Lapua brass.

Oh, I don't know, Starline Supercomp brass is pretty strong. I never retire them intentionally and they generally get lost before they fail. I am loading some right now that have 10+ loadings and very little headstamp visible and they are still going strong.

Edited December 2, 2008 by larry cazes

[Jeff686]

I bought 5,000 pieces of Lapua several years ago to replace my Starline SC when it wears out. From my testing, the Lapua brass does take less powder (.3 in my loading) to make the same power factor. At the time, Lapua was cheaper than Starline if you bought directly from the importer in lots of 5,000 pieces or more. I have 10 loadings on the Starline brass of 10.1 grains of VV 3N38 under a 124 MG so I suppose I ought to toss it all and switch to the Lapua brass.

Oh, I don't know, Starline Supercomp brass is pretty strong. I never retire them intentionally and they generally get lost before they fail. I am loading some right now that have 10+ loadings and very little headstamp visible and they are still going strong.

Same thing with my Armscor brass. What I have left is running strong. I had trouble reloading some of it in my SDB, but once that was fixed, runs like a champ.

[shred]

I've cracked many cases in all the rimless brass. Practice for Steel Challenge with a brass-catcher and the cases get loaded 20+ times each. IME there's no real difference between TJ and SC as far as lifetime-before-cracking nowdays. Armscor hasn't done as well, but I have a lot less of it since I've never bought any.

9x23 / 9 Supercomp you can also tell by the extra effort at resizing-- if one's tough, pull it and have a look.

[XRe]

Oh, I don't know, Starline Supercomp brass is pretty strong. I never retire them intentionally and they generally get lost before they fail. I am loading some right now that have 10+ loadings and very little headstamp visible and they are still going strong.

This is exactly the experience I have with Supercomp, too - although I did crack a case once when I was running 7625 (faster, higher pressure). Well, the same except that the headstamps are still plenty visible on the Supercomp cases Seems like the Lapua cases like to trend towards incognito faster than others... The ones that I've had do seem to lose headstamp for some reason...

Note, though, that "requiring less powder" generally translates to lower case capacity, which means higher pressure - you may or may not care or consider that a good or bad thing... its just something to note