Sticky chambers when Reloading

[oldfrank]

I have been shooting a 4" 686 and a 2 1/2" 66 in IDPA lately and I am having a frustrating problem.

When I load at the start of a stage the rounds drop in very freely, after firing six the empties dump right out but the new rounds always have 1,2,or 3 sticking up that requires me to stop and push them flush before I can close the cylinder. This bugs the heck out of me when I am trying to go quick and smooth. They are not real hard to push all the way into the chamber but they don't just drop in either.

For reference, I am loading Poly Coated bullets with W231. The gun does not seem to be really dirty or anything.I have dropped all the rounds into a Wilson gauge and also the cylinder before shooting and they all fit loose.

Yesterday during a seven stage 90 round match, I scrubbed the chambers with a Tornado brush after the third and fifth stage. It did not seem to help.

I have buffed the inside of the chambers with fine Scotch brite and a drill motor in the past.

Anyone else have this problem or have any suggestions. I really need to get this fixed. I will change powders or bullets if that is a solution, I just don't know.

If it was not both guns, I would think maybe too tight chambers. Anyone ever had any reamed out or anything?

Thanks for any suggestions!

[Mooney]

My 625 has been reamed and chamfered- WHAT a difference, it's like night and day.

The SW chambers seem to be notorious for inconsistencies as to tightness, etc. Does the Poly (moly???) coating rub off a little bit at a time? I don't have much experience with those- but I would think that it would get sticky if there is residue.

.38s seem to stick a bit in my guns too though (NOT reamed or chamfered), so it may behoove you just to get it done, as long as it's OK in the IDPA rules, I can't see how it would hurt.

[oldfrank]

My 625 has been reamed and chamfered- WHAT a difference, it's like night and day.

The SW chambers seem to be notorious for inconsistencies as to tightness, etc. Does the Poly (moly???) coating rub off a little bit at a time? I don't have much experience with those- but I would think that it would get sticky if there is residue.

.38s seem to stick a bit in my guns too though (NOT reamed or chamfered), so it may behoove you just to get it done, as long as it's OK in the IDPA rules, I can't see how it would hurt.

No problem in IDPA with reaming or chamfering. The Poly/Moly coating comes off slightly but it is very slippery so I don't know if that is causing the problem. Thanks and keep the idea coming.

[Bubber]

oldfrank, 231 is not known to be a dirty powder, but what is your load? I use a 375 rifle bore brush to clean out my cylinders. One swipe through and back on each cylinder and they are CLEAN. If your rounds are roll crimped any fouling could cause them to not go in easily. What speed loaders are you using? The Jet and Safariland Comp III's push the rounds in to a point instead of letting gravity do it all. Sorry not to helpful it is all a gues at this point. Later rdd

[oldfrank]

oldfrank, 231 is not known to be a dirty powder, but what is your load? I use a 375 rifle bore brush to clean out my cylinders. One swipe through and back on each cylinder and they are CLEAN. If your rounds are roll crimped any fouling could cause them to not go in easily. What speed loaders are you using? The Jet and Safariland Comp III's push the rounds in to a point instead of letting gravity do it all. Sorry not to helpful it is all a gues at this point. Later rdd

My load is 3.7 of W231. I use the Lee seperate crimp die and crimp very lightly. I use Comp III with the 686 and Comp II with the 66. The problem is after the speedloader has released, that last 1/4 " or so of the round sticking up is what is messing me up. It does not take much to push it down but it takes time.

S&W actually has my 686 now doing some warranty work and while they have it they are doing the tune up with chamber chamfering. I don't know if that will help or not. I repolished the 66's chambers with some Scotch-Brite again today. I will have to shoot it again to see what happens.

Thanks for all replies and any advise or comments.

[Toolguy]

You might try tumbling the loaded rounds to clean off the outside. Sometimes that helps with lead bullets.

[Edubya]

You might try tumbling the loaded rounds to clean off the outside. Sometimes that helps with lead bullets.

Don't tumble moly-coated bullets.

If you have an extra sizing die, try it in the last position (w/o decapper), instead of the FC. Run it all the way down, just as your first sizing die should be set. It's going to squeeze down any deformities that your loading operation has caused. Just keep the roll crimp light.

[HSMITH]

It is dirt and crud. 231 is pretty dirty and the bullets leave residue as well. I would guess that your bullets are a little on the big side as well. Does this happen with commercial ammo or reloads with a jacketed bullet?

Edited December 1, 2008 by HSMITH

[kframe_mike]

I had the same problem using 231 with lead or moly bullets.To many "clinkers".I switched to WST and its been much better.My wife prefers using Comp IIs in a Mod 14 and never has any sticking issues with these loads either.I've heard good things about Solo 1000 too.-Mike

[earplug]

I had the same problem with a Moly/Poly 200 grain bullet with 4.7 gr WST that had a sharp edge, A 200 grain pointed bullet with a pronounced edge. it built up crud on the chamber lead that made loading hard.

I switched to 230 grain RN with 4.6 grain of Clays, due to recoil and blast managment and I haven't had the problem repeat.

I think the smooth bullet without an edge has kept down any build up.

My bullseye gun shoots a 180 grain plain lead SWC without any problem with difficult chambering, but its a real light and clean load of 3.6 grains of Bullseye.

[pskys2]

Not all Moly/Poly coated bullets are equal. Some will lead.

It is a problem we all face with lead loads, to some extent.

Some powders work better than others also.

You might get a smith to polish the chambers, if you do it yourself be very careful especally at the throat.

[underlug]

misfire

Edited December 4, 2008 by underlug

[David Sinko]

The problem is 231 which is a filthy powder, especially when used with cast bullets. I had these problems with .38 Special and .45 Colt when I used 231. The biggest offender was the .45 Colt Redhawk with the perfectly finished (but very tight) custom chambers. Switching to Clays took care of this problem.

Dave Sinko

[Dennis Sherman]

All I can offer is what works for me. Shooting a 686, I use 38spl+P brass, 4.5 gr titegroup with Berry 158gr RN, 1.50 oal. I do have chamfered cylinders but no reaming. I try to keep oil and lube out of the cylinders, and I use a 40 S&W stainless brush every 8-10 reloads to keep things clean. Of course over time my cylinders are a little bigger due to all the shooting and brushing after some 70k rounds, and when I tip up for a reload, the brass almost falls out. I would be reluctant to do any reaming. Also, do you chamber check your reloads? There are times that brass comes out fo the reload process when it may not be perfectly straight, due to varied case lenghts.

I have owned several S&W revolvers, both production and PC, and I have not found thier cylinders to be off in the least bit. I am not saying it does not happen, but I would think it to be rare. Also, get away from lead. There is not a whole bunch of savings from plated tips and they are a lot less smoke and aggrivation.

Edited December 7, 2008 by Dennis Sherman

[oldfrank]

All I can offer is what works for me. Shooting a 686, I use 38spl+P brass, 4.5 gr titegroup with Berry 158gr RN, 1.50 oal. I do have chamfered cylinders but no reaming. I try to keep oil and lube out of the cylinders, and I use a 40 S&W stainless brush every 8-10 reloads to keep things clean. Of course over time my cylinders are a little bigger due to all the shooting and brushing after some 70k rounds, and when I tip up for a reload, the brass almost falls out. I would be reluctant to do any reaming. Also, do you chamber check your reloads? There are times that brass comes out fo the reload process when it may not be perfectly straight, due to varied case lenghts.

I have owned several S&W revolvers, both production and PC, and I have not found thier cylinders to be off in the least bit. I am not saying it does not happen, but I would think it to be rare. Also, get away from lead. There is not a whole bunch of savings from plated tips and they are a lot less smoke and aggrivation.

Yes, I do gauge check and chamber check my rounds and they are all loose.

I just got the 686 back from S&W. They replaced the hammer and turned the barrel in due to flame cutting. I had them do the "slick uo" on it while they had it.

The chamfered cylinders and my polishing of the chambers seems to help. I shot about 150 rounds fairly rapidly at the range and only at the very end did I have a few rounds that stuck up and that was with no brushing.

The edges of the chambers might have been a little tight and tha chamfering fixed it.

I am also going to try jacket bullets during a match to see if that also helps.

Thanks for the ideas everyone!

[nosler4570]

I ALSO HAVE A 686 4" AFTER TRYING DIFFERENT THING IN CLEANING NOW I JUST USED IT FOR HUNTING (CLOSE RANGE) BECAUSE AFTER 12-18 ROUND I EXPERIENCE THE SAME PROBLEM. SW HAVE NOT EXPLANATION FOR THIS PROBLEM.

[rbert0005]

I try to run a brush thru the cylinder between every stage. End of problem. You could also use plated bullets.

Scotchbrite in the chamber will make it worse, you are removing material from in there and allowing more room for the crud to build up.

Bob

[revchuck]

A couple of notes...

Have you ever chronoed your load? It's extremey unlikely that it makes the PF (it takes about 4.2 grains of 231 with a 158 grain RNL to make it in my experience). Lower pressure means dirtier burning, which means more unburnt powder in the chambers.

Also, some coated bullets frankly suck with some powders. I don't have any experience with your combination, but with some powders and bullets the coating will melt off while still in the chamber. It happened to me in the only major USUPSA match I've ever shot, to the point where the rounds wouldn't fit in the chamber. It took a fresh .40 caliber chamber brush on a drilll and about an hour's time to clean it out of the chambers. It sounds to me like this is your problem. The fix would be to switch to either plain lead or plated bullets. FWIW, the most accurate IDPA load I've ever worked up for my M10-8 is 4.4 grains of 231 under a 158 grain RNL.

[oldfrank]

A couple of notes...

Have you ever chronoed your load? It's extremey unlikely that it makes the PF (it takes about 4.2 grains of 231 with a 158 grain RNL to make it in my experience). Lower pressure means dirtier burning, which means more unburnt powder in the chambers.

Also, some coated bullets frankly suck with some powders. I don't have any experience with your combination, but with some powders and bullets the coating will melt off while still in the chamber. It happened to me in the only major USUPSA match I've ever shot, to the point where the rounds wouldn't fit in the chamber. It took a fresh .40 caliber chamber brush on a drilll and about an hour's time to clean it out of the chambers. It sounds to me like this is your problem. The fix would be to switch to either plain lead or plated bullets. FWIW, the most accurate IDPA load I've ever worked up for my M10-8 is 4.4 grains of 231 under a 158 grain RNL.

Thanks for your ideas. I have made some changes. First the gun had to go back to S&W for warranty work and I had them do the master gunsmith job while they had it.

The chamfering of the cylinders and my polishing later seems to be a big help.

I recently bought 2000 158 JSP from Roze, they are actually the same price I have been paying for the poly coated bullets. I am hoping they will be even cleaner and I will save them for matches and probably practice with lead.

I have upped my powder to 4.0 and will go higher if need be. I do not have a chrono and the reloading charts are all over the place regarding what is Max with W231/HP38.

I have loaded 300 of the JSP loads and will make it to the range after the first of the year to check for how clean and accurate they are. I will try some with increased powder charge also.

Thanks again, Frank

[revchuck]

Frank - You'll still probably be way under the PF, since jacketed bullets take more powder than the same weight lead or plated bullets to get the same velocity. You might be SOL if you feel you have to use 231 and stay within .38 +P velocities.

However (comma) if you don't have any .38s laying around, you might want to up the powder charge above .38 levels. You're using a M66 and a M686, both .357s, so this may be a possibility. If you try this, it's your responsibility for any mishaps. I've got both .38s and .357s, so I don't.

The most current data for 231 (and other Winchester, Hodgdon and IMR powders) is here: http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

If you're going to compete in any of the practical shooting sports, you need a chronograph, or at least access to one. The velocities given in manuals by both powder and bullet manufacturers are usually...optimistic.

[357454]

Hello Frank: It sounds like you are getting unburnt powder and residue in your chambers when you eject the empties. I would suggest trying Bullseye and seating the bullet as deep as possible, this should build more pressure which will seal the case and burn the powder more efficiently. I seat my bullets just past the ogive with a very firm crimp, the cases and chambers are much cleaner and require less frequent cleaning during a match.