Resting Rifle on Mag

[chendersby]

Well I for one agree wiht the "new" rule. In REAL rifle competition, no part of the rifle may touch the ground. It has been this way since I can remember. This silly "action rifle" stuff is for the birds. Everone knows that the only REAL rifle shooting is done with a big heavy coat, big old glove on one hand, and you would never move with the rifle...that is just plain dangerouse!! NOPE!! Hi-Power is the only REAL rifle shooting left in America. I am glad to see the "tactibilly" crowd FINALLY implement some meaningful rules.

As for the 10" from lips to base plate along the back spin...OUTSTANDING!!!! Now we can keep all other rifles out of the competiton that comes stock with an odd sized magazine, like AKs, Galis, and the reall trash of the rifle world the H&K 93. It is about time all the "tacticool crowd got in line with the REAL RIFLE SHOOTERS!! everyone know only an AR-15 is good for REAL RIFLE shooting. I can't wait untill you yahoos see the light and only allow single loading or at most 8 rounds in the margazine at one time. Congratulations to RM3G the only true inovator when it comes to sensible restrictions...a phrase I think we will be hearing allot more in the futur. Kudos! KurtM

Kurt

You are my hero

[Merlin Orr]

No need for a rant... I am seeing the light! Perhaps Cork Milner and the distinguished gentleman from Area 2 are right....? Rules standardization may be the way to go.

How about we all get together on this and use High Power rules?

[kurtm]

Hey Merlin, amigo mio! We don't need to suggest Hi-Power rules, RM3-G is doing that for us

[D.Hayden]

Well I for one agree wiht the "new" rule. In REAL rifle competition, no part of the rifle may touch the ground. It has been this way since I can remember. This silly "action rifle" stuff is for the birds. Everone knows that the only REAL rifle shooting is done with a big heavy coat, big old glove on one hand, and you would never move with the rifle...that is just plain dangerouse!! NOPE!! Hi-Power is the only REAL rifle shooting left in America. I am glad to see the "tactibilly" crowd FINALLY implement some meaningful rules.

As for the 10" from lips to base plate along the back spin...OUTSTANDING!!!! Now we can keep all other rifles out of the competiton that comes stock with an odd sized magazine, like AKs, Galis, and the reall trash of the rifle world the H&K 93. It is about time all the "tacticool crowd got in line with the REAL RIFLE SHOOTERS!! everyone know only an AR-15 is good for REAL RIFLE shooting. I can't wait untill you yahoos see the light and only allow single loading or at most 8 rounds in the margazine at one time. Congratulations to RM3G the only true inovator when it comes to sensible restrictions...a phrase I think we will be hearing allot more in the futur. Kudos! KurtM

lol - excelent

[Benelli Chick]

JJ's feeling a little cranky right now. He's ruminating about things.

However, I would check the current rules and not be complaining about rules that are not there.

The 10" rule is not there!

You're also mixing up

USPSA rules and RM3G.

Yes, it may seem micromanaging to some of you...but...if you'll notice many of the rules have become less specific.

Why is this one a little more specific? Because there is very little difference between Open rifle and Tactical scope.

Many of the rules have tactical with no external supporting devices. Yes, we have clarified what an external supporting device is. Also, just to be clear, we haven't eliminated the use of cinched mags or vertical foregrips. We have eliminated resting them on the ground and using them as an external supporting device. The magazine in the gun is an integral part of the gun, the extra magazine is not. You do not need two magazines to operate a rifle. (Maybe in a gun fight!)

We got grief eliminating the beta/c mag last year, but it is in fact used as an external supporting device. For RM3G it is reserved for Open! We have to let the "cheaters" (open shooters) have somethings reserved especially for them.

Yes, the wood additions, and base pads that are 6"x6" are obviously external supporting devices to all of us, but when do you decide too much is too much? We've let you know when we've decided. The Arredondo base pad is acceptible in tactical. It's a touch wider, but it's rounded and doesn't enlarge the footprint. The magpul rubber handles, same thing. The Tripp mag pads, same thing!

So we're back to the big deal about evenly cinched mags. Many of you have said they may be more trouble than not. Just think of it like we're saving you from yourself!

And Kurt, please don't go with the elbows only thing!!! Between Eddie and JJ, I've heard enough on that subject already! Good grief!

Also, I have seen people use the cinched mags prone to make for easy mag changes, but I've seen them with 20's and they're not rested on the ground. That's the point. They can drop the mag down and move over the new one without picking up the gun. Yes, if you have 2 30's cinched, resting on the ground, you can pick up the rifle and move it. That is not okay today in RM3G.

Please stop saying RM3G doesn't want you to rest on a magazine. We have absolutely no problem with that. I do it myself.

And as far as the name of the class, "Tactical", we would have changed it if we could. (I thought "typical" would have been more descriptive.) This is a game, and until the bad guys start shooting back at you, it really isn't tactical. I've always said, if you want a real, "tactical" match, the winner would be the guy who shoots less and gets away fastest! That's going to mean a whole new scoring system, and we've got enough trouble choosing between the ones we have now!

So, please check www.rm3g.com for the correct rules, and don't argue about the ones that aren't even there!

I believe I'm done venting now! JJ may share his take on this after Thanksgiving, but for now, he has to find some male singing canaries for his mother in Michigan, and that's a completely different issue!

Thanks for your fervor, passion and concern for the sport of 3-Gun! (And I'm really being serious there, even though it sounds a little sarcastic!)

Denise

Sorry! I'm never done talking! I just needed to say that while I don't want to micro rule (our rules are still less than 4 pages) it seemed from experience that "external supporting devices" was not clear to everyone! We just clarified. I would've preferred not to have to, but... You'll notice we also clarified "factory configuration" (as best we could) because we often got new shooters that were afraid their guns put together from parts didn't work. Most of the rules use the phrase "factory configuration" but it's not always clear what it means. Did we have to say "no phasers"? Not yet, but when phasers come out, you won't be able to use them in anything but Open, so be prepared!

Edited November 20, 2008 by Benelli Chick

[kurtm]

Singing Canaries? I don't know about Singing, but I had one that stuttered once

Comon guys! No where does RM3G rules say you can't mono-pod. It sure DOESN't have a 10" rule, BUT I am going to send them a definition of "Glove" and "Coat" just so we are prepared for the hordes of Hi-Power shooters that will now inundate the matches. As for unified rules...I am all for that as long as they are the ones I make I say let RM3G wite down and post the rules and THEN we can whine, or like it, but all this is a tempest in a tea pot! KurtM

[Religious Shooter]

For clarity I would suggest that the rules section specifically say that the Arredondo and Magpul type pads are OK to use in Tactical.

A single Arredondo basepad and the magpul rubber basepads (Ranger, Original, etc.) will likely increase the "footprint."

If you slob on some grease or something on the bottom of a mag without an attachment, a mag with an Arredondo basepad and a mag with one the magpul rubber basepads and monopod them in a normal fashion... the mag without anything will leave the smallest mark.

The rubber basepads will probably leave the largest as they deform and usually have the biggest contact patch.

[Chuck Anderson]

I didn't post the rule that I did as being what was current for RM3G. I'm pretty sure if anyone reads that post they'll see that I said the rule had been re-written. I don't agree with it, so I'm not going to the match. The point in posting the rule was so people could see the direction some MD's, and I guarantee JJ is not the only one, are going. RM3G is not using the rule I posted. But if you're concerned about those popping up at a match near you, make sure you let MD's know if that is the direction you want the sport to take.

[el pres]

I didn't post the rule that I did as being what was current for RM3G. I'm pretty sure if anyone reads that post they'll see that I said the rule had been re-written. I don't agree with it, so I'm not going to the match. The point in posting the rule was so people could see the direction some MD's, and I guarantee JJ is not the only one, are going. RM3G is not using the rule I posted. But if you're concerned about those popping up at a match near you, make sure you let MD's know if that is the direction you want the sport to take.

I am officially letting match directors know that I want cinched mags, as a supporting device, to continue to be allowed

in Tactical or Scope-Tactical classes !!

Beta mags in Tactical ? Alright, we were getting a little carried away there. Forward grips with hidden bi-pods inside ?

Well alright again, thats pushing it... But cinched mags are not all that stable and they were always ok until we

figured out how to use them....

You know I just got done whatching Jerry doing some prone rifle shooting tips on Shooting USA, he was showing the

optional use of cinched mags "as a supporting device" for matches and/or classes that dont allow "BI-PODS" ???

Edited November 20, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[jobob]

Also, I have seen people use the cinched mags prone to make for easy mag changes, but I've seen them with 20's and they're not rested on the ground. That's the point. They can drop the mag down and move over the new one without picking up the gun. Yes, if you have 2 30's cinched, resting on the ground, you can pick up the rifle and move it. That is not okay today in RM3G.

Ok, but why? WHY? I hear no explaination. It just won't be ok in RM3G. Why? Does resting on cinched mags give a competitor an unfair advantage? Absolutely not! Restricting it is just unnecessary micromanagement. Shooters have been doing this for years, but somebody, for whatever reason, doesn't like it, so it's "let's make a rule". "Those dastardly sinners are doing something we don't do, so let's make them do it our way!" I'm all for rules that are based in reason and logic. But rules for rules sake do more harm than good.

And who cares if Tactical rifle is close to Open rifle? The reason for that is optics and comps are allowed, not because of the magazines used. This is multi gun, and the other guns are far from Open. Open rifles are not all that far removed from "real" rifles, but open shotguns and pistols are a far cry from what is normally used in the "real" world. If it's really that important that Tactical rifle be so different from Open, let's just end Tactical division and have just Limited and Open. Any equipment that may be allowed on Tactical rilfes (cinched mags, Beta C mags, vertical foregrips, etc) the competitor should be allowed to make the best use of it, and not be told when and how it can be used. That is micromanaging the competitors.

If you really feel the need to ban something (after all, it's the politically correct thing to do these days), just ban the use of cinched mags and vertical foregrips, period. Don't just say "well, it's ok to use them, just not when you go prone". That just makes no sense at all. It amounts to shooter harassment. Even if it's unintentional, that is the result. And I really do believe that it IS unintentional. I'm sure there is no malice intended in the rule change, and I'm not accusing anyone of that. But I do think some people are getting carried away with their rule making authority.

I suppose, since I've never shot at RM3G, it could be said I don't have a dog in the fight. But I'm concerned that this could start a trend that would spread like a virus to other matches and organizations. Besides, I may be able to make it down there sometime, and I want my cinched mags! I'm attached to them! I cling to them, like I cling to my guns!

[gotm4]

Banning the use of the mag as supporting device is a great way to make 3gun/rifle matches smaller.........

More rules = less shooters.

[Benelli Chick]

You know I just got done whatching Jerry doing some prone rifle shooting tips on Shooting USA, he was showing the

optional use of cinched mags "as a supporting device" for matches and/or classes that dont allow "BI-PODS" ???

Um...enough said!

And I repeat, NOT an extra rule, clarifying current rule. What is in external supporting device?

and for pity's sake, you can still use the magazine in the gun to rest on and monopod it!

[Merlin Orr]

You know I just got done whatching Jerry doing some prone rifle shooting tips on Shooting USA, he was showing the

optional use of cinched mags "as a supporting device" for matches and/or classes that dont allow "BI-PODS" ???

Um...enough said!

And I repeat, NOT an extra rule, clarifying current rule. What is in external supporting device?

and for pity's sake, you can still use the magazine in the gun to rest on and monopod it!

Using the "opinion" of one shooter (through hearsay evidence) even as well thought of as Jerry,...........

The MD of a match can do whatever they wish. It is everyones free choice to base there match attendance on whatever criteria (usually rule sets?) they wish to. If the MDs change a rule to something the shooters feel onerous they will protest with their refusal to attend.

This rule change seems universally unpopular at this point.

[Jim Norman]

My 2 cents.

I think that making a rule where no rule is needed is wrong. My question is why do they think they need a rule? Has someone shown up at a match with some oddball piece of equipment that will radically change the face of the competition? If so, allow it in OPEN where there are very few limits on equipment.

If you want people to make long hard unsupported shots this can EASILY be accomplished through stage design. Put a port in a wall that is too low to sit and to high to go prone, place a fault line back 3 fee from the wall so that you cannot rest on the wall. Problem solved, I remember one COF in NC a few years back, pallets with about 2" between the slats, pallets laid so the slats were horizontal and only the center few were usable, too high for prone, to low to sit and the target array was 6-7 poppers lined up front to back in a row with a plate behind them backed up by a No-Shoot! You have no choice but to roll your rifle 90 degrees and do some quick math as to impact vs POA. But the rules did not need to be changed to allow this.

Jim

[Chuck Anderson]

Here's the problem with still using cinched mags for prone when they are not even. It works great when the magazine in the well is the one touching the ground. What happens when you have to reload to the higher placed magazine? Now the point contacting the ground is off to the side of the gun. This causes funky recoil and sucks to shoot from. Most matches don't require that many precision shots fired from Prone where this would be an issue. It's going to rear it's ugly head more on the lower class shooters because they are more likely to need a reload on a long range stage.

And Jim, from what I heard there was a shooter that showed up at a match with a chunk of wood attached to the bottom of his magazine in Tactical. That seems to be where this all started from. Cool idea but pretty clearly a rifle supporting device that should NOT have allowed.

[el pres]

Here's the problem with still using cinched mags for prone when they are not even. It works great when the magazine in the well is the one touching the ground. What happens when you have to reload to the higher placed magazine? Now the point contacting the ground is off to the side of the gun. This causes funky recoil and sucks to shoot from. Most matches don't require that many precision shots fired from Prone where this would be an issue. It's going to rear it's ugly head more on the lower class shooters because they are more likely to need a reload on a long range stage.

And Jim, from what I heard there was a shooter that showed up at a match with a chunk of wood attached to the bottom of his magazine in Tactical. That seems to be where this all started from. Cool idea but pretty clearly a rifle supporting device that should NOT have allowed.

Who's the shooter !!!

Me and a couple hundred other Tactical guys would like to speak with him !!!

Edited November 20, 2008 by DIRTY CHAMBER

[maineshootah]

And Jim, from what I heard there was a shooter that showed up at a match with a chunk of wood attached to the bottom of his magazine in Tactical. That seems to be where this all started from. Cool idea but pretty clearly a rifle supporting device that should NOT have allowed.

Let's be honest guys... eliminating that (above) is pretty darn reasonable.

[jobob]

And Jim, from what I heard there was a shooter that showed up at a match with a chunk of wood attached to the bottom of his magazine in Tactical. That seems to be where this all started from. Cool idea but pretty clearly a rifle supporting device that should NOT have allowed.

Let's be honest guys... eliminating that (above) is pretty darn reasonable.

Yes, no problem. It would be easy to declare it a supporting device and tell him to take it off or go Open. The problem comes when rule makers try to cover those situations (not needed, the current rule pretty well covers it) by making needlessly complicated rules that only hurt, and frankly piss off, the ordinary shooter. I'd be less unhappy if the rule makers were honest enough to just say that we don't like cinched mags or vertical foregrips because we think they give you an unfair advantage, so those are banned in Tactical at our match. I wouldn't necessarily like it, but I'd know what the limitations of my equipment would be and I could accept it. It still would be silly, but the shooter would know where he stands. Saying that those accessories are allowed, but only in certain situations, and you can only use them as we say you can use them, is just confusing and petty, and almost seems designed to trip up the competitors.

So, let's say, I'm going through a stage with my typical 'buzzer amnesia' with my cinched 30 round Pmags and come to a situation that requires prone, or shooting through a low port, and I get down and my mags accidentally touch the ground (the horror of it!). Do I get a procedural for each shot fired while the mags are touching? Or am I put in Open? The latter is the more appropriate, I guess, since I'm using a "device" that is only allowed in Open. That would really make me happy, especially on the last stage of a match! Chances are I wouldn't attend that match again. Is that what we want? Make things difficult on the shooters through unneeded and harassing rules so fewer come to our matches? Yeah, that's good for the sport!

[gose]

You know I just got done whatching Jerry doing some prone rifle shooting tips on Shooting USA, he was showing the

optional use of cinched mags "as a supporting device" for matches and/or classes that dont allow "BI-PODS" ???

Um...enough said!

And I repeat, NOT an extra rule, clarifying current rule. What is in external supporting device?

and for pity's sake, you can still use the magazine in the gun to rest on and monopod it!

Using the "opinion" of one shooter (through hearsay evidence) even as well thought of as Jerry,...........

The MD of a match can do whatever they wish. It is everyones free choice to base there match attendance on whatever criteria (usually rule sets?) they wish to. If the MDs change a rule to something the shooters feel onerous they will protest with their refusal to attend.

This rule change seems universally unpopular at this point.

+1

I use my cinched mag as a rest when I go prone as well and I would very much like to do so in all matches. I'm also not a big fan of timeplus scoring (San Angelo FTW), but if the arranging club decides that they wont allow cinched mags as rests and use timeplus scoring, I'll either accept it and shoot the match like everyone else, or I simply wont shoot the match.

Bottom line, I dont really care, I just want to play

[Carlos]

Ridiculous!

Anyone that thinks this should be banned needs to take a long hard look at the latest basic training that our military has adopted - which specifically teaches soldiers to use the magazine as a rest (there is an Army Times article around here someplace on this internet).

I realize USPSA does not have to mirror military doctrine (and I doubt its USPSA's intention to ban magazine rests). But all these so-called "tactical" or outlaw 3gun matches? If they ban magazine rests, then they are more like unrealistic games than the USPSA they seek to avoid.

Leave USPSA out of this one! You can support all you want off the mag in USPSA Tactical and Limited. The concept is "freestyle". I should go on a rant about rules standardization at this point but I will control myself.

I would like to hear JJ's input though.

- uh, I kinda thought I WAS leaving USPSA out of this one (please take another look at my post). No confusion on my part here; the rule being discussed is purely part of an out-law, one-off 3gun shoot that makes up its own rules as it sees fit.

As much as I believe it will never happen, I DO wish that more 3gun shoots would get together and agree on a UNIFORM set of rules - even if they (understandably) choose not to adopt USPSA rules.

[Benelli Chick]

It's a good thing I'm a middle school teacher because I'm used to repeating myself!

It is not a NEW rule. We defined external supporting device. As MD, I do not want to fight with you at the match that your triple cinched magazines with curb feelers sticking out the sides are supporting devices when you want to call them magazines with frills. As a shooter, I want to know before I (or Tim) design a new magazine for myself.

I have not heard one of you that are complaining about the even cinched magazines not being okay to rest on the ground, say that you can't do a reload without them. Let's be honest, you want them for support!!!! You can use them all day in Open. They are not okay in tactical as supporting devices. In fact, if you can find a way to use that wooden stand for your gun in Open, have at it! Monopodding on a mag, is just that, mono(ONE) podding on A mag!

As far as not letting you use a vertical foregrip at all, weirdly, (before the ones with the little feet that pop out) they were designed to help with close quarters, standing rifle shooting. The biology of the human arm can hold firmer and longer with your arm gripping a VFG than holding your wrist/palm upward on the handguard. We did not want to eliminate their use for that. You may remove them between stages if you choose to.

I can go into the old SOF rules, and original IMGA rules which were much more restrictive, but I'm getting bored!

TTFN(Ta Ta for now)!

[Chuck Anderson]

Call it an interpretation if you want but if it restricts what has been common practice, it's a new rule. Saying otherwise is just disingenous. As far as no one talking about doing a reload, see my last post. Yes, I can do a reload without having a cinched mag. I can also do reloads where I store the magazine in my car and have to run back for it. The point is your interpretation of the rule changes the way the game is played.

[Benelli Chick]

I beg to disagree again. I realize you haven't come to RM3G, but for the last two years, using cinched mags was only a possible advantage less than once in each match. We had sandbags, wooden rests, rocks etc for the other long range shooting positions. Things that you could rest your handguard on, which is much more stable than a cinched mag.

In 2007, cinched mags could have been used to rest on the ground in one position on stage 1 and the targets were only about 150 yards away. All the other positions, had wood or sandbag rests. In the bunkers, you could have even used your even cinched mags all day, as you rested your handguard on the sandbag, and were basically kneeling, so your magazines couldn't even touch the ground.

In 2008, there was no position without wooden rests, rocks or sandbags. You could have rested your handguard on something on every position.

So, the clarification hasn't changed the way our shooters will play the game at all!

Now, I don't know you, and I don't know if you're an oldtimer or not, but the old timers I talk to, have always told me not to rest my rifle on my magazine because it often causes feed jams. The truth is, rifle and mag designs have improved, and lots of us rest on the magazine without negative consequences. So in fact, equipment has changed over time. Even though Kurt wants us to, we're not going back to SOF where you can't have anything touching the props or the ground but your elbows, but we do choose to restrict what you can use as an external support!

The old rule, said "no external support (i.e. bipods)". I.e. means for example, it doesn't mean bipods only. In order to clarify, we have been more inclusive of what external support consists of!

For someone who hasn't come to our match, and is apparently not ever planning to because of the NEW clarification, why does this even matter to you??? Could it be because you're afraid that the reasoning behind our clarification will make sense to other MD's???? To be honest, if you hadn't got me all riled up, most of the other match director's would probably not have given it much thought, so thanks! Now, they might!

I know it's a little rude, and I hope Kelly won't get too mad, but if you want to send me your address, I could send you some cheese and crackers to go with that whine!

[Flexmoney]

I like cheese and crackers. Especially with some nice jalapeno mustard.

[el pres]

I like cheese and crackers. Especially with some nice jalapeno mustard.

Mmmmm, how about some Salami with those ..