Production Rules

[Stewart]

Paul Hyland asked this question, on another site, and I wondered also - can anyone help?

"At the World Assembly in Cebu the new Production Division was launched, prior to this there was no Production Division recognised by USPSA. IPSC had a list on it's web site of all the guns that were valid for production. The list was to be amended each year with any new guns that met the criteria at the SHOT show.

The new division was accepted by the IPSC assembly.

USPSA then changed the definitions of what constituted a Production Gun; The magazine restriction I can understand, I have no problem with that, but can someone explain to me why the criteria for guns was changed ?"

[Detlef]

hmmm, Stewart, I don't know how long you've been around in USPSA, but there is more history to this. USPSA had a (sagging, lagging, quite unpopular) Practical Carry category (not a class, not a division) in place for I believe 2 y before then. I believe that USPSA Prod Div grew more out of this than out of IPSC Prod Div. Explains the *no race rig* rule.

I personally remain unconvinced that the very stringent restrictions in IPSC Prod Div are enforcable/enforced, or even at all desirable. Though Vince made the point that USPSA's added-weight limit may be just as unenforcable/unenforced. Obviously, USPSA powers-to-be mainly didn't like the idea of the "list of guns".

--Detlef

[Flexmoney]

I am no fan of a gun list.

If IPSC were to adopt our Production rules, that might work. But the USPSA President won't be able to force our USPSA rule onto IPSC.

USPSA Production and IDPA's Stock Service Pistol need to be nearly the same (it would be silly to not be able to use the same equipment in sports).

Every Production gun I have played with has needed a trigger job out of the box. IPSC's 5 pound rule stiffles a lot of the potiential there.

IPSC's 5 inch barrel limit leaves out the G34 & G35. VERY popular guns here in the US and in USPSA Production.

That is all I can think of off the top of my head...but I don't want any part of the IPSC Production rules.

[vluc]

...but I don't want any part of the IPSC Production rules.

maybe a write-in for Flex!!

slight drift, but there is a reason we shoot USPSA not IPSC. Not sure but I don't see a European Practical Shooting Association or a French Practical Shooting Association, etc.

USPSA is geared towards the folks who shoot here. When IPSC folks shoot in the States, do they abide by IPSC rules or USPSA?

Hmm, maybe we do like baseball...every other year we switch the rulebooks....

[slavex]

First post here,

I think another question would be about the Worlds. If and when the Worlds are held in the USA next, what rules are followed? USPSA or IPSC or a strange combo of both? I know a number of shooters from up here in Canada that do shoot in the USA and obviously they shoot following USPSA rules, and vice versa for when Americans come up here. I would expect the Worlds, no matter where they are held to follow IPSC rules. but hey what do I know, I've only been in IPSC for a little over 1.5 years.

[Skywalker]

Slavex,

every level IV or V IPSC sanctioned match, no matter where it is hosted, is under the direct control of IPSC directive board, both for MD, RM, Match Staff and IROA ROs recruitment/appointment.

Moreover, the rulebook (Appendix A) clearly states that for level III matches and higher an International Sanctioning is required, and you don't have many chances of getting a sanctioned match if you don't strictly adhere to the IPSC rulebook (which is another requirement under Appendix A)...

I'm not interested in determining who's best and who's worst, here in Italy we play with the IPSC rulebook (unchanged) and this easen the whole process of going abroad to attend matches; if I recall well, there was a post somewhere in the forums where Rufus the Bum was complaining about the fact of not being able to use his USPSA-legal Limited Div. Magazines in a Level III match in Europe, due to the different application of the box rule.

This is only one of the drawbacks of not adopting the same rulebook all over the world.

BTW, I do believe in the U.S. there are no level III matches, at least if they are played with the USPSA version of the rulebook. Is this true, or do you have some sort of amendments with IPSC?

[BDH]

BTW, I do believe in the U.S. there are no level III matches, at least if they are played with the USPSA version of the rulebook. Is this true, or do you have some sort of amendments with IPSC?

Skywalker, not true. I worked Area 3, Area 5, Factory Gun, 3 Gun, Limited and Open Nationals this year. All of them were level III matches, and all were run under the USPSA 14th ed. rulebook. Also, all of them are listed under the Match results on the IPSC home page (with the exception of Area 5, so I am not sure what happened there). You do raise a valid point however in that if these are Level III matches, how can they be run under USPSA rules.....

[Skywalker]

Brian,

I was just wondering this (the possibility of an amendment), because I couldn't believe that no level III matches were held in the U.S., but I'm still a bit puzzled about IPSC sanctioning a match that is not played according to IPSC rulebook.

Maybe you're getting so proficient as a jedi knight, that you 've been able to force Darth and the whole IPSC to sanction the matches you officiated?

[BDH]

Skywalker,

I know of some concessions made to accomodate IPSC rules. A couple of examples were that at Area 3, they posted the stage description (or was it walk-thru?) on the stages per IPSC. Also, at Area 5, I know the RM said they had to pull out start 'boxes' and replace them with a start 'line' per IPSC. OTOH, there were the obvious differences between the rules like if the competitor pulls the trigger after Gun Clear, and it goes boom. Under USPSA rules, that is the shooter's fault and they go home.

Maybe you're getting so proficient as a jedi knight, that you 've been able to force Darth and the whole IPSC to sanction the matches you officiated? 

Well, while I carry a lot of weight, I don't think I carry the amount of influence to get that done! However, I am looking forward to becoming a full Jedi with all rights and privledges in the very near future!

[Skywalker]

OTOH, there were the obvious differences between the rules like if the competitor pulls the trigger after Gun Clear, and it goes boom. Under USPSA rules, that is the shooter's fault and they go home.

Now I'm quite interested in the handling of such differences.

I'm especially interested in the handling of the "box" rule for Limited/Standard Division, which is quite different between USPSA and IPSC, as well as the general Production Division rules subject of this thread.

It is my understanding that USPSA rules are more relaxed concerning the "box", thus USPSA Limited competitors are allowed to use 140mm magazines, as well as the DA trigger pull in Prod, since there is no 5lbs limit under USPSA rules.

Were all these USPSA rules amended to get sanctioning (i.e. you complied with IPSC rulebook), or did you get a special dispensation from IPSC to run the match under USPSA rules?

Please, take note that I'm not interested in pointing out possible unlawfulness (if there was any), but just trying to imagine how (someday in the future) the two rulebooks could ever be unified.

[Kyle Norris]

If I'm not mistaken, all the matches mentioned earlier had both Standard and Limited, as well as Modified divisions. USPSA Production rules were used, and and IPSC Production winner was not recognized.

[BDH]

Were all these USPSA rules amended to get sanctioning (i.e. you complied with IPSC rulebook), or did you get a special dispensation from IPSC to run the match under USPSA rules?

Skywalker, all the US matches that I am aware of are currently running under the USPSA 14 ed rulebook, period. As for special dispensation, none that I am aware of, but maybe Arnie or Troy or one of the USPSA RM's that hangs around here can comment.....

[JMD]

FYI: I went through this exercise for an Area early this year.

According to Doug Lewis, and I hope my quoting him is OK,

(I have asked via email but no reply yet.)

“"This is fairly simple actually. The USPSA rulebook has an

exemption from IPSC. This means that for purposes of match

sanctioning, Limited replaces Standard and the USPSA

Production regulations are accepted for Level III's. Limited 10

is not recognized for President's medals but you can still include

it in the match.

The sanction approval for the CoF for US Level III's will extend

to Fixed Time as well. There is no sanction problem with the Metric

target. Further, all other issues related to Course Design must be

followed. This has not been a big problem for the other US Level III's

although we have had some spirited discussions

Note that I have been doing all the sanction work for the US matches

since the Pasa Assembly and I would be happy to assist you <snip>

The maximum sanction fee is $100 US. It is actually

one match fee to a maximum of ~.

The cost of the President's medals is included in the

Sanction Fee along with any shipping and handling

and the Sanction Committee costs for phone, fax, etc.

After the CoF is approved and the [C] form submitted

to HQ, the only thing left is to enter the results on the

IPSC website.""

We use “our” USPSA rulebook, classes and divisions.

There is NO REQUIREMENT for Classic targets or poppers.

I have worked with Doug on other matches and he is a real pro.

Essentially if you follow the rulebook and kick in $100. You too

can sanction your next big match.

Joel

P.S. I wrote a proposal if any are interested. Send me your address

by private message and I'll send it along.

[hoser]

Joel is correct - USPSA has an exemption from IPSC to use USPSA rules even for Level III IPSC sanctioned matches. The last two Area 3 Tournaments received Level III sanctioning from Doug Lewis. All the courses were shoot them as you see them (unless a classifier is included).

Level IV and V matches, even if held in the US, would use IPSC rules.

Arnie

[Gary Stevens]

My memory not being what it used to be, when did USPSA have a Practical Carry Division? As this is interestingly enough an area I am interested in, I would like to explore what we used to have.

I only remember:

Open

Limited

Limited 10

and then Production

and God only knows when them sneaky wheel gunners sneaked in Revolver.

So someone help me out here.

[Detlef]

Gary,

my memory is probably not much better than yours, but...Practical Carry was never a Division, but a recognized category (?) like Lady, Military etc. Andy Hollar introduced it about 2 y before his term ended,

that would make it what, 1998-9? It never really caught on, and I cannot recall the exact requirements

except ((I think) size, DA trigger, carry holster... It was all published in Front Sight at the time...

--Detlef

[Gary Stevens]

OK, I think you might be right on this. It was actually Production but called a different name. When it was recognized as an honest to goodness division and got more support from USPSA it became more popular.

Thanks

[BDH]

Level IV and V matches, even if held in the US, would use IPSC rules.

Now that's interesting. Level III in the US are run under USPSA rules, but Level IV or V would be run under IPSC rules. Has there ever been a Level IV or V in the US? Maybe the Pan Am a couple of years back???

[mactiger]

I think, and I've slept since then, so don't quote me, but the S&W Millennium match was run under IPSC rules. I remember jumping through hoops to get the stages to comply with the "no more than 8 rounds allowed from a position" rule. The North American Championship may have been run under the IPSC rules, too--and that may be what I'm thinking of.

[Caspian_45]

Troy I believe you are right, both the '98 North American and the Millennium match were run under IPSC rules. And it was no more than 9 rounds from any one postition.

Tony Hawkins

[Chuck D]

Practical Carry has a bit of a following in my neck of the woods (Eastern Lakes Section). We used to call it the "Glock Gang". They were pretty cool guys (and gals).

I never really understood the "stock gun, race holster" program IPSC uses but then again......

Stock guns, carry holsters.....go git em !