Poppers at the '08 Nationals

[Franklin D Wolverton]

according to our current rules: if a match does not have a chrono...you must accept the shooters declared PF. if a popper fails to go down at such a match, it's an automatic reshoot if the competitor requests a calibration (since a calibration can't be performed...because there is no chrono to test whatever ammo might be used for calibration purposes). [it's likely that most local matches are not run this way, but this is what our rules currently state]

There is nothing in the rulebook that says the calibration ammo has to be chrono'd using the "match" chrono. Only that it has to meet a PF of 115-125, and once tested and approved by the RM, is not subject to challenge by competitors. The RM is only required to use the procedures of Appendix C2 to confirm his/her calibration ammo. It doesn't say that it has to be the "match" chrono. Most of us for our local matches confirm the ammo at home or the range prior to the match.

In fact, per C2, once the calibration ammo is approved by the RM, the only further testing is using that ammo to confirm the chrono is still working properly, not the other way around.

Frank

[driver8M3]

There is nothing in the rulebook that says the calibration ammo has to be chrono'd using the "match" chrono. Only that it has to meet a PF of 115-125, and once tested and approved by the RM, is not subject to challenge by competitors. The RM is only required to use the procedures of Appendix C2 to confirm his/her calibration ammo. It doesn't say that it has to be the "match" chrono. Most of us for our local matches confirm the ammo at home or the range prior to the match.

you might be right about that...for those local matches that actually use a chrono gun (though the meaning of C2's "prior to commencement of the match" could probably be debated). but most local matches i attend to not have a calibration gun...the steel is just set light.

[George Jones]

according to our current rules: if a match does not have a chrono...you must accept the shooters declared PF. if a popper fails to go down at such a match, it's an automatic reshoot if the competitor requests a calibration (since a calibration can't be performed...because there is no chrono to test whatever ammo might be used for calibration purposes). [it's likely that most local matches are not run this way, but this is what our rules currently state]

therefore...according to our own rules, it's silly to claim to try to test PF with poppers at most local matches (or any match without a chrono), since technically, any hit on a popper will either take it down, or be grounds for a reshoot.

That is a very "creative" interpretation of the rules.

Although Level I matches face somewhat different challenges when dealing with poppers (no chrono, perhaps no designated ammo), an automatic reshoot for a standing popper is not justified.

[driver8M3]

Although Level I matches face somewhat different challenges when dealing with poppers (no chrono, perhaps no designated ammo), an automatic reshoot for a standing popper is not justified.

what do you tell the shooter that shot the popper and asks for a calibration?

[SA Friday]

Although Level I matches face somewhat different challenges when dealing with poppers (no chrono, perhaps no designated ammo), an automatic reshoot for a standing popper is not justified.

what do you tell the shooter that shot the popper and asks for a calibration?

Tell them to go find you and your 125.1pf reloads

[JThompson]

according to our current rules: if a match does not have a chrono...you must accept the shooters declared PF. if a popper fails to go down at such a match, it's an automatic reshoot if the competitor requests a calibration (since a calibration can't be performed...because there is no chrono to test whatever ammo might be used for calibration purposes). [it's likely that most local matches are not run this way, but this is what our rules currently state]

therefore...according to our own rules, it's silly to claim to try to test PF with poppers at most local matches (or any match without a chrono), since technically, any hit on a popper will either take it down, or be grounds for a reshoot.

That is a very "creative" interpretation of the rules.

Although Level I matches face somewhat different challenges when dealing with poppers (no chrono, perhaps no designated ammo), an automatic reshoot for a standing popper is not justified.

I would agree, but I was to tired to debate at 1:30 AM. Sides... I figured you guys would jump in. I would like to hearmore about your views onthe matter...

[Skywalker]

They are there to determine power as well as a target.

Nope.

According to the rulebook (IPSC one):

4.2.2 Paper targets must have scoring lines and non-scoring borders clearly marked on the face of the target, however, scoring lines and non-scoring borders should not be visible beyond a distance of 10 meters (32.81 feet). The scoring zones reward power in IPSC matches.

4.3.1.1 IPSC Poppers, which must be calibrated as specified in Appendix C, are approved metal targets designed to recognize power.

4.3.1.2 IPSC Mini Poppers, which must be calibrated as specified in Appendix C, are approved metal targets designed to recognize power and are intended to simulate regular sized Poppers placed at greater distances.

So, while poppers are designed to recognize PF, i.e. they will fall faster when hit with higher PF, paper targets are designed to reward PF, i.e. Major - Minor scoring.

i'm not sure why you can't have a COF comprised only of metal plates, but it doesn't make sense that it's because of PF issues. after all, there's no problem with all-paper stages.

Incorrect.

According to the rulebook:

4.3.1.4 Various sizes of metal plates may be used (see Appendix C3), however, metal plates must not be used exclusively in a course of fire. At least one authorized paper target or IPSC Popper must be included in each course of fire.

you can't have a CoF composed of plates only, and this has nothing to do with recognizing PF, but rather with rewarding PF: there's no possible advantage to gain shooting Major PF in a plates-only CoF (only A hits), thus shooting minor has a definite advantage here, while the concept was to allow a trade-off between shooting higher PF (and get rewarded for this by a higher scoring for peripheral hits) at a slower peace, or shooting minor at a higher peace but being penalized (in terms of scoring) for C and D hits.

A plates-only CoF won't reward PF (scoring wise), while a paper only does.

Properly calibrated poppers serve the same purppose as A/C/D zones on cardboard targets.

So no, steel doesn't test PF. But proper calibrated steel does not reward poor shooting.

Again, incorrect: see reply to JThompson.

Poppers are designed to recognize PF, while Paper Targets are designed to reward PF.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Skywalker

[XRe]

according to our current rules: if a match does not have a chrono...you must accept the shooters declared PF. if a popper fails to go down at such a match, it's an automatic reshoot if the competitor requests a calibration (since a calibration can't be performed...because there is no chrono to test whatever ammo might be used for calibration purposes). [it's likely that most local matches are not run this way, but this is what our rules currently state]

I would tend to agree with George... that's rather... creative... And a tiny bit pedantic and silly You simply find someone shooting Production with a neener and get them to shoot the damn thing... if it goes down, no reshoot... If that needs to be made blatantly clear in the rules, I'm sure that could happen...

therefore...according to our own rules, it's silly to claim to try to test PF with poppers at most local matches (or any match without a chrono), since technically, any hit on a popper will either take it down, or be grounds for a reshoot.

I don't agree about the "therefore" part, but I do agree that in practice, its silly to test PF with steel targets. Its simply not practically possible to set a steel target so that it rejects sub-minor, but goes down for minor... All you get then is targets that either fall "too easily" (and don't cause problems in the match, except for wind), or you get a lot of (mostly successful) calibration requests (and the commensurate reshoots)...

i'm not sure why you can't have a COF comprised only of metal plates, but it doesn't make sense that it's because of PF issues. after all, there's no problem with all-paper stages.

I believe, in the end, that this is vestigial to when PF was tested via steel. If its accepted that PF is measured at the chrono, then this rule becomes obsolete... Of course, plates are a whole other PITA unless designed correctly...

There is nothing in the rulebook that says the calibration ammo has to be chrono'd using the "match" chrono.

Sure there is. The designation to use C2 implies that we're talking about the "match chrono". See C2 title.

In fact, per C2, once the calibration ammo is approved by the RM, the only further testing is using that ammo to confirm the chrono is still working properly, not the other way around.

Well, you can't have it both ways. When developing the new chrono procedure rules, it was deemed more desirable to have the chrono verification procedure mimic the conditions the competitor's ammunition were under (ie, any temperature differences, etc) rather than have the (confirmed and now unchangeable) match calibration ammo thrown out. If the ammo is from the same lot (see the "should" clause in C2 14), this ends up being reasonable...

ETA - Luca makes some good points, too...

Edited September 24, 2008 by XRe

[Chuck Anderson]

So no, steel doesn't test PF. But proper calibrated steel does not reward poor shooting.

Steel that falls when hit at the base of the popper with a bb gun, may be properly calibrated steel. Read the rule. It only speaks of knocking down steel with a hit in the cal circle. Nowhere does it say anything about not falling if hit anywhere else. For good reason. Can you imagine the extra RM calls? "Stage 2 to RM, we need a calibration, the shooter hit 2 inches below the cal circle with a Production gun and the dang popper fell over again." What percentage of shots in a match are on steel? 10% maybe? If you think that you can gain an advantage by shooting minor just for those shots, good luck with that.

My concern would be that minor ammo may make the FFP fall faster than major. Thereby not recognizing power but actually penalizing it. I didn't get a chance to time any of the poppers but it was something we talked about. The minor ammo would hit just hard enough to release the latch and the popper would fall. The major ammo tended to stand it up and seemed to delay it dropping. This could be a concern. But again I didn't take that close of a look.

[JThompson]

They are there to determine power as well as a target.

Nope.

According to the rulebook (IPSC one):

4.2.2 Paper targets must have scoring lines and non-scoring borders clearly marked on the face of the target, however, scoring lines and non-scoring borders should not be visible beyond a distance of 10 meters (32.81 feet). The scoring zones reward power in IPSC matches.

4.3.1.1 IPSC Poppers, which must be calibrated as specified in Appendix C, are approved metal targets designed to recognize power.

4.3.1.2 IPSC Mini Poppers, which must be calibrated as specified in Appendix C, are approved metal targets designed to recognize power and are intended to simulate regular sized Poppers placed at greater distances.

So, while poppers are designed to recognize PF, i.e. they will fall faster when hit with higher PF, paper targets are designed to reward PF, i.e. Major - Minor scoring.

i'm not sure why you can't have a COF comprised only of metal plates, but it doesn't make sense that it's because of PF issues. after all, there's no problem with all-paper stages.

Incorrect.

According to the rulebook:

4.3.1.4 Various sizes of metal plates may be used (see Appendix C3), however, metal plates must not be used exclusively in a course of fire. At least one authorized paper target or IPSC Popper must be included in each course of fire.

you can't have a CoF composed of plates only, and this has nothing to do with recognizing PF, but rather with rewarding PF: there's no possible advantage to gain shooting Major PF in a plates-only CoF (only A hits), thus shooting minor has a definite advantage here, while the concept was to allow a trade-off between shooting higher PF (and get rewarded for this by a higher scoring for peripheral hits) at a slower peace, or shooting minor at a higher peace but being penalized (in terms of scoring) for C and D hits.

A plates-only CoF won't reward PF (scoring wise), while a paper only does.

Properly calibrated poppers serve the same purppose as A/C/D zones on cardboard targets.

So no, steel doesn't test PF. But proper calibrated steel does not reward poor shooting.

Again, incorrect: see reply to JThompson.

Poppers are designed to recognize PF, while Paper Targets are designed to reward PF.

Actually, what I said was "they" poppers ARE there for power factor, and that's what I said... I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with me on. Now that may be going away, but that IS what they were there for to begin with.......

Edited September 24, 2008 by JThompson

[XRe]

My concern would be that minor ammo may make the FFP fall faster than major. Thereby not recognizing power but actually penalizing it. I didn't get a chance to time any of the poppers but it was something we talked about. The minor ammo would hit just hard enough to release the latch and the popper would fall. The major ammo tended to stand it up and seemed to delay it dropping. This could be a concern. But again I didn't take that close of a look.

Depends on the stage, doesn't it? If I get a little extra delay in the activation of a target, that gives me time to do more stuff before tagging the activated target. It would only be in the situation where there's nothing else to engage after activation that this works against the major PF shooter... I would venture that this situation is pretty rare, relatively speaking...

By the same token, on rearward falling activators, major PF has a disadvantage in this regard... So its not changing anything to use a FFP, just reversing the relationship that we already have...

[Skywalker]

Actually, what I said was poppers ARE there for power factor, and that's what I said... I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with me on.

JT,

I'm just slightly disagreeing with you on that part of your statement where "poppers are there to determine power as well as a (paper?) target".

They both deal with PF, but poppers deal with it to recognize it (fall faster/slower, but score the same when shot with Major or Minor PF), while paper deals with it to reward it (they score Major/Minor PF differently, but they don't care if the hole is punched with Major/Minor/sub-Minor ammo): they serve different functions, although they both use the same gauge (PF), thus I wouldn't really say they both determine power.

I know it's just semantics here, but it makes the difference, at least for me.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Skywalker

[driver8M3]

according to our current rules: if a match does not have a chrono...you must accept the shooters declared PF. if a popper fails to go down at such a match, it's an automatic reshoot if the competitor requests a calibration (since a calibration can't be performed...because there is no chrono to test whatever ammo might be used for calibration purposes). [it's likely that most local matches are not run this way, but this is what our rules currently state]

I would tend to agree with George... that's rather... creative... And a tiny bit pedantic and silly You simply find someone shooting Production with a neener and get them to shoot the damn thing... if it goes down, no reshoot... If that needs to be made blatantly clear in the rules, I'm sure that could happen...

it might be creative...but that's the way the rules currently read. and our sport is all about creativity.

[JThompson]

Actually, what I said was poppers ARE there for power factor, and that's what I said... I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with me on.

JT,

I'm just slightly disagreeing with you on that part of your statement where "poppers are there to determine power as well as a (paper?) target".

They both deal with PF, but poppers deal with it to recognize it (fall faster/slower, but score the same when shot with Major or Minor PF), while paper deals with it to reward it (they score Major/Minor PF differently, but they don't care if the hole is punched with Major/Minor/sub-Minor ammo): they serve different functions, although they both use the same gauge (PF), thus I wouldn't really say they both determine power.

I know it's just semantics here, but it makes the difference, at least for me.

Okay, I see where you are going... My intention was to state that they (poppers) are there for PF, but are targets as well. If you take away the PF you just have a scoring target, when hit anywhere, gives you a max score. I don't really care for that idea. That's why they have at least one there on all steel stages. If you take that away, you have no need for the popper as a target other than as an activator. They would have to change the rules to state that you must have at least one paper target on a steel stage, but while that would fill the accuracy part of DVC the power parts would be overlooked. imho

Jt

Edited September 24, 2008 by JThompson

[kevin c]

4.2.2 Paper targets must have scoring lines and non-scoring borders clearly marked on the face of the target, however, scoring lines and non-scoring borders should not be visible beyond a distance of 10 meters (32.81 feet). The scoring zones reward power in IPSC matches.

4.3.1.1 IPSC Poppers, which must be calibrated as specified in Appendix C, are approved metal targets designed to recognize power.

4.3.1.2 IPSC Mini Poppers, which must be calibrated as specified in Appendix C, are approved metal targets designed to recognize power and are intended to simulate regular sized Poppers placed at greater distances.

Thank you, Luca, for pointing that out.

The poppers at the Nats, then, recognized power, but did not differentiate among different power levels (subminor, minor or major - all would result in a KD for a hit most anywhere on the popper face).

Don't get me wrong - as a physician I know about liability and being responsible for safety, and I'm all for FFP's. It's just that I am not keen on losing the differentiation in PF with this particular type of popper.

Mebbe I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill. There may not be any change in intent, deliberate or otherwise, meant by using these poppers. Mebbe it was that the Nats used what was available, even though it wasn't optimal from some points of view (mine).

[VegasOPM]

We recently bought several of the forward falling poppers for our club matches. I love them since I don't have to wait on whether they fall after I hit them. Calibration of the poppers seems to be an issue at every match we shoot, and I shoot Production. We use a lot of steel and we don't have an opportunity to paint between every shooter, so making sure that the hit was in the calibration zone is not always possible. There is only one thing more frustrating than running 6 poppers, calling each shot and then realizing that one is still standing. That is having someone cry foul on a bad stage and call for a popper calibration.

[Nik Habicht]

Then by that way of thinking we need to pull the rules that says we can not have only plates on a stage right? Since all the power factor stuff is determined at chrono... of which I have only seen at high level matches. I think if we aren't careful here we might open it up for lots of... new loads. I dunno... it could be a slippery slope to me.... I haven't made my mind up on the issue, I'm just throwing out ideas.

I was under the impression that the above was only part of the reason for "no plates only" stages --- the other was that there was already a sport for that -- Steel Challenge......

[shred]

FWIW I asked Troy near the end of the Nationals. He said he hadn't had a popper fail to fall on the calibration shot the entire match, and that there were far fewer calls for calibration either.

BTW, FFP vs RFP does virtually nothing for splatter and bounces in the shooter direction; what they help with is bullets glancing out off a falling popper.

[George Jones]

In 2006, the Tulsa poppers were a nightmare. Calibration calls were constant. One stage joked that the squad's shoooting order was "Joe, RM, Frank, RM, Al, RM, etc). The design of the 2007 and 2008 full size poppers is different. No calibration adjustment. Regardless of the level of the ground, most of them will now fall if you tap them with your pinkie. IMO they no longer recognize power. I am not aware of any effort to move the rules in that direction. It is simply a "feature" of that particular design.

The "problem" is not that they are forward-falling, it is that they are not adjustable. They do not reduce splatter, they just keep bullets from glancing off downrange over the berm (airport approach about four miles away). In my experience, the worst splatter back is from cratered steel or from plates (which do not provide sufficient resistance to destroy the bullet). Good quality poppers do not splatter back.

These are the only FF poppers I have seen which are not adjustable. Most matches I attend simply turn poppers around for FF. They can still be adjusted. The Tulsa poppers cannot be turned around, but I do think the hook design could incorporate an adjustment of some kind. It seems they just weren't designed with one in mind.

As concerns popper calibration adjustment, in an ideal world a sub-minor hit at the top of the ball would not drop the popper. Neither would a minor hit just below the ball. But it is realistically impossible to set the adjustment that closely. In reality, most matches set poppers way too light, avoiding calibration challenges.

[pjb45]

Having set more than my fair share of poppers at Nationals this year (I wore high boots so I did not mind), I can attest that they did not seem to need any calibration. I believe they would have fallen if properly hit by a .22. To me this was awesome! I do not remember anyone in my squads asking for a reshoot.

[Skywalker]

I was under the impression that the above was only part of the reason for "no plates only" stages --- the other was that there was already a sport for that -- Steel Challenge......

Nik,

the reason for no plates-only stages had been given by the IPSC rules committee a long ago, and I reported it here in my initial post: a plate-only stage doesn't reward power, as a paper or mixed stage would (major/minor scoring), thus there would be no balance in DVC elements, since the V part would not be equally evaluated as the other ones, which is contrary to what rule 1.1.3 mandates.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Skywalker

[Punkin Chunker]

So no, steel doesn't test PF. But proper calibrated steel does not reward poor shooting.

Steel that falls when hit at the base of the popper with a bb gun, may be properly calibrated steel. Read the rule. It only speaks of knocking down steel with a hit in the cal circle. Nowhere does it say anything about not falling if hit anywhere else. For good reason. Can you imagine the extra RM calls? "Stage 2 to RM, we need a calibration, the shooter hit 2 inches below the cal circle with a Production gun and the dang popper fell over again." What percentage of shots in a match are on steel? 10% maybe? If you think that you can gain an advantage by shooting minor just for those shots, good luck with that.

??? Properly calibrated steel that falls when hit at the base with a bb gun. Wow. What poppers do you use?

My concern would be that minor ammo may make the FFP fall faster than major. Thereby not recognizing power but actually penalizing it. I didn't get a chance to time any of the poppers but it was something we talked about. The minor ammo would hit just hard enough to release the latch and the popper would fall. The major ammo tended to stand it up and seemed to delay it dropping. This could be a concern. But again I didn't take that close of a look.

Thank you for supporting my point -- properly calibrated poppers will fall when hit correctly by appropriate PF, and should fall more readily when hit by major than by minor.

[Punkin Chunker]

Properly calibrated poppers serve the same purppose as A/C/D zones on cardboard targets.

So no, steel doesn't test PF. But proper calibrated steel does not reward poor shooting.

Again, incorrect: see reply to JThompson.

Poppers are designed to recognize PF, while Paper Targets are designed to reward PF.

Not sure what part you point to as incorrect.

Steel does not test PF. You cannot shoot a popper and differentiate between PF of 125, 130, 135, 140, etc.

Maybe what you are trying to say is that it's more correct to state that (correctly calibrated) poppers respond to ammunition which is of acceptable PF. Which is about the same as what I was trying to say.

RF poppers do reward higher PF -- a low shot is more likely to drop a RF popper if the ammunition is of higher PF. They recognize more power by falling more readily, or when hits are slightly off, if the power is higher.

Which fits semantically with the rules.

[Skywalker]

Not sure what part you point to as incorrect.

What I pointed out as incorrect was the part of your statement where you said that "properly calibrated poppers serve the same purpose of A/C/D zones on a cardboard target".

This, according to the rules, is not true: they serve different purposes.

I have already said it, properly calibrated poppers recognize PF (they do not reward it, scoring 5 points ammo if dropped, PF notwithstanding), meaning they should not fall if hit in the calibration zone with sub-minor ammo, they should not fall if hit outside of the calibration zone with minor ammo, and they might fall if hit outside of the calibration zone with major ammo. This is recognizing PF, and this is what poppers are supposed to do in a stage, otherwise you might just use plates.

Paper targets, on the contrary, do not recognize PF (they get perforated by a BB gun as well), but they reward PF, specifically for peripheral hits, with different scoring for major and minor PF: a C-hit with major PF ammo scores 4 points, same hit with minor PF ammo only scores 3 (but you already know this all). This is rewarding PF, and this is what paper targets scoring zones are supposed to do in a stage; incidentally, this is why a stage composed of all paper targets showing only the A-zone should not be allowed: no reward for shooting major over minor PF, thus no V part of the DVC equation equitably evaluated.

Edited September 25, 2008 by Skywalker

[ffl]

I think forward falling poppers are a step in the right direction from a safety aspect. Most of us have been clipped by a piece of schrapnel coming off a rear falling popper - some sting, some draw blood. What if one of those errant pieces catches a juglar vein and the injury is fatal? The excuse of too costly to implement won't fly if sombody get mortally wounded.

IIRC Chuck Bradley posted a spine chilling story of how one of his boys needed stitches from catching "flak" from a popper. If there is a safer product out there that yields the same result it should be in use.

This was from a plate with a flat foot welded on the bottom to make it stand up. NOT FROM A POPPER.

I think it would be very difficult to set up a popper so that it falls with a minor calibre hit (125 PF) and not with a 110-115PF inside the calibration zone. In fact I'd say that any mechanism that was that sensitive would not last a match.

We have the chronograph to do our calibration and determination of PF. I don't think we need poppers to do the same thing. We need poppers to fall when they are hit, otherwise we end up with calibration checks and re-shoots and match delays.

I had no complaints with the poppers at Nationals, they worked flawlessly, even in the pouring rain and soggy ground.

As a Popper manufacturer It is very difficult to design a popper that stands up to the changing conditions of the course as well as meet the rules and function 100% of the time. Our Forward Falling Poppers have been proven in the IRC and the Pro-AM (stage 8). During both matches not one of our poppers failed to fall. The problem with manufacturing a popper is that the physics involved are absolute. Gravity is a constant. Bullet power is designated by the rules. The only variable factors to help with the design are center of gravity and mass of the steel plate. On Rearward falling poppers the center of gravity must be such that the Kinetic energy of the bullet striking the plate will move that center far enough rearward that the plate will continue to fall. With a Forward falling design the plate must be held in a forward leaning position and the latch must be constructed to unlatch in the small amount of movement the plate is forced rearward. The amount of movement required to unlatch can be dramatically reduced in that type of design. However because of the increased sensitivity of the unlatching, the plate can be subject to wind conditions more than a rearward falling popper. Our design overcomes that problem.

So no, steel doesn't test PF. But proper calibrated steel does not reward poor shooting.

Steel that falls when hit at the base of the popper with a bb gun, may be properly calibrated steel. Read the rule. It only speaks of knocking down steel with a hit in the cal circle. Nowhere does it say anything about not falling if hit anywhere else. For good reason. Can you imagine the extra RM calls? "Stage 2 to RM, we need a calibration, the shooter hit 2 inches below the cal circle with a Production gun and the dang popper fell over again." What percentage of shots in a match are on steel? 10% maybe? If you think that you can gain an advantage by shooting minor just for those shots, good luck with that.

My concern would be that minor ammo may make the FFP fall faster than major. Thereby not recognizing power but actually penalizing it. I didn't get a chance to time any of the poppers but it was something we talked about. The minor ammo would hit just hard enough to release the latch and the popper would fall. The major ammo tended to stand it up and seemed to delay it dropping. This could be a concern. But again I didn't take that close of a look.

I also have a problem with the FFP design and Calibration. Is is fair to the shooter if a FFP does not fall when hit in the sweet spot and then when asked for calibration it does. The question I ask is. Is the popper (when shot by the RM) in the same condition as when it was before it was shot by the competitor? The answer is no. The popper has been acted upon by external forces after being reset after the last shooter. Did the popper partially unlatch and then finish when the Calibration round hit it?

This was the question I posed to DNROI John. His answer was that we don't know what the PF of the round that hit the popper was. If the person makes Chronograph then you must assume that he is shooting legal ammo. I think that on a FFP the challenges to REF should be such that the shooter has more options against equipment failure or partial equipment failure.

Forward Falling Poppers