Who else makes 2011 frames?

[uscbigdawg]

True. Illegal though? That stinks!

What's the difference between a 2011 with a single stack grip and a conventional single stack? That's lame.

Rich

[Merlin Orr]

I am glad that RIA makes SS guns and really glad that they market them at 1/3 the price of S_I products. The prices are already out of line IMO and they would be farther out of line if only one manufacturer made them. Every time a new cell carrier comes into the market the prices come down. When imported cars came into the US the quality of products improved immensely. When drug patents expire the generics can (kinda) be bought by those of us with no health insurance.

Competition is vital to any and every market. Without competition we stagnate and die.

Bring it on.

Comparing apples to oranges?

Competition moving forward, getting better is good. Copycat competition is what stagnates. Perhaps that's what the patent laws promote. Again make something new and revolutionary, thats what I want to see. Not more of the same.

I don't think the idea is good business sense, at least considering all the variables. But then again bad business decisions are made everyday.

You are just pissed over your shooting bag.

[chuckbradley]

I am glad that RIA makes SS guns and really glad that they market them at 1/3 the price of S_I products. The prices are already out of line IMO and they would be farther out of line if only one manufacturer made them. Every time a new cell carrier comes into the market the prices come down. When imported cars came into the US the quality of products improved immensely. When drug patents expire the generics can (kinda) be bought by those of us with no health insurance.

Competition is vital to any and every market. Without competition we stagnate and die.

Bring it on.

Comparing apples to oranges?

Competition moving forward, getting better is good. Copycat competition is what stagnates. Perhaps that's what the patent laws promote. Again make something new and revolutionary, thats what I want to see. Not more of the same.

I don't think the idea is good business sense, at least considering all the variables. But then again bad business decisions are made everyday.

You are just pissed over your shooting bag.

Your just pissed cause I make a good point

Actually since many have copied my bag it shows it can not be improved on, (we are sort stagnate here arent we ). I would rather be known as the one who was copied and still makes that design better than anybody else than to have them make something better than mine. I get more sales sine those that try the cheap copycats see how they like the design and when it falls apart they end up getting one of mine.

[Irishlad]

Perhaps a doublestack metal frame built for the 9/40, smaller dimension, different "feel" than others.

Non-working grip safety model.

Any other "mods" that people make, or ask for, that's not included in the base gun?

[Sandro]

I am glad that RIA makes SS guns and really glad that they market them at 1/3 the price of S_I products. The prices are already out of line IMO and they would be farther out of line if only one manufacturer made them. Every time a new cell carrier comes into the market the prices come down. When imported cars came into the US the quality of products improved immensely. When drug patents expire the generics can (kinda) be bought by those of us with no health insurance.

Competition is vital to any and every market. Without competition we stagnate and die.

Bring it on.

Comparing apples to oranges?

Competition moving forward, getting better is good. Copycat competition is what stagnates. Perhaps that's what the patent laws promote. Again make something new and revolutionary, thats what I want to see. Not more of the same.

I don't think the idea is good business sense, at least considering all the variables. But then again bad business decisions are made everyday.

You are just pissed over your shooting bag.

Your just pissed cause I make a good point

Actually since many have copied my bag it shows it can not be improved on, (we are sort stagnate here arent we ). I would rather be known as the one who was copied and still makes that design better than anybody else than to have them make something better than mine. I get more sales sine those that try the cheap copycats see how they like the design and when it falls apart they end up getting one of mine.

I guess this would apply to anyone making AR lowers too?

I want to see a $999.00 Limited gun produced in high quantities, so all my friend can either shoot production or limited or open and not have to take a second mortgage.

[uscbigdawg]

Sandro. At last check a $500 Glock with about another $200-300 put in to it can win you the Nationals...or finish 2nd.

Rich

[Sandro]

I get it, it is not the equipment but who is driving it. You have to agree that another 2011 maker would benefit the consumer/shooters, perhaps with better product or a more price competitive platform. My 2C.

Sandro

[chuckbradley]

I guess this would apply to anyone making AR lowers too?

I want to see a $999.00 Limited gun produced in high quantities, so all my friend can either shoot production or limited or open and not have to take a second mortgage.

There are already $999.00 limited guns that they can shoot.

I would like them to make $20,000 Corvette's, Ferrari's, Lamborghini's but it just isnt possible to attain that level of technology for that price.

If you want a 3k guns performance for 999.00 it just isnt going to happen. Evidenced by the number of 1911's out there that are priced 500.00 to $3,000.00. The fact there are still guns priced that high doesn't mean that the top end quality will sell that cheap. When you look at the price of the frame by itself , even if it was free you are still over 999.00.

Instead of thinking that you can get a frame cheaper by someone copying the design, think how you would feel if you had designed it.

[buddy_fuentes]

SpottyB, it appears that you have pulled the sacred cow's tail. Did anyone of these guys get upset when Night Hawk Custom jumped into the market after honing their skills at Wilson? How about some of the other 1911 makers? I bet it doesn't bother them that someone is making hammers and other tools that are not an improvement, but a COPY! Oh No! Not the reloading presses, too.

I'll buy your first production model. How is that? You have your first order. Now get busy.

I have a great idea, make me your USA distributor and I'll have Chuck (grin) selling them, too.

Anyway, if you have a dream to follow, then do so. If you think you can do it, then you can. Don't let small talk get you down.

The best of luck to you. Buddy

[cdrissel]

Started programming the frame today. After some Proto-typing, looking into getting a manufacturer’s FFL and everything else, I'll keep everyone informed.

[uscbigdawg]

BTW...love your avatar.

Rich

82nd Airborne Division

[HSMITH]

Things I would like to see in your new frame? Sure, I'll give a few suggestions.

Slide stop, hammer and sear pin holes: They really NEED to be spot, drill, mill, single point bore and ream from a single side. I fully understand how much time and expense it will add, but it will be worth it. Should be able to hold .0002" true position with a decent machine on BOTH sides of the frame and have them the right size. Gunsmiths the world over will love you for it.

Grind a form tool to contour the dustcover at the bottom edges, it will cost a little up front but save a ton of machine time in the end as well as provide a nice finish that doesn't take an hour + to smooth out.

Leave an extra .030" on the frame tangs so I can put a SEAMLESS beavertail fit on it.

Those are my major complaints with the frames right now.

[cdrissel]

Things I would like to see in your new frame? Sure, I'll give a few suggestions.

Slide stop, hammer and sear pin holes: They really NEED to be spot, drill, mill, single point bore and ream from a single side. I fully understand how much time and expense it will add, but it will be worth it. Should be able to hold .0002" true position with a decent machine on BOTH sides of the frame and have them the right size. Gunsmiths the world over will love you for it.

Grind a form tool to contour the dustcover at the bottom edges, it will cost a little up front but save a ton of machine time in the end as well as provide a nice finish that doesn't take an hour + to smooth out.

Leave an extra .030" on the frame tangs so I can put a SEAMLESS beavertail fit on it.

Those are my major complaints with the frames right now.

Now we are talking my language.

I will try to run the first prototypes on our newest HAAS VF2SS w/ 4th axis.

- Spot, drill, bore and ream should not add too much time and would be worth the extra precision.

- Form tool is possible, will have to get some quotes.

- Always easier to leave extra meat.

Keep the ideas coming.............

Edited September 13, 2008 by SpottyB

[HSMITH]

Things I would like to see in your new frame? Sure, I'll give a few suggestions.

Slide stop, hammer and sear pin holes: They really NEED to be spot, drill, mill, single point bore and ream from a single side. I fully understand how much time and expense it will add, but it will be worth it. Should be able to hold .0002" true position with a decent machine on BOTH sides of the frame and have them the right size. Gunsmiths the world over will love you for it.

Grind a form tool to contour the dustcover at the bottom edges, it will cost a little up front but save a ton of machine time in the end as well as provide a nice finish that doesn't take an hour + to smooth out.

Leave an extra .030" on the frame tangs so I can put a SEAMLESS beavertail fit on it.

Those are my major complaints with the frames right now.

Now we are talking my language.

I will try to run the first prototypes on our newest HAAS VF2SS w/ 4th axis.

- Spot, drill, bore and ream should not add too much time and would be worth the extra precision.

- Form tool is possible, will have to get some quotes.

- Always easier to leave extra meat.

Keep the ideas coming.............

Probably have to single direction position everything on a Haas to hold .0002" true position but that doesn't add much time either. I'd plunge a mill after drilling the holes and prior to boring, worth the time when you want to make the hole exactly in the right place and straight all the way through. I'd like to see all of the external surface finishes held tight, save a lot of time not having to block out the frame to get it straight and flat prior to finishing. Blocking out a frame just sucks.....

[Carlos]

Started programming the frame today. After some Proto-typing, looking into getting a manufacturer’s FFL and everything else, I'll keep everyone informed.

Good man. I take it you have seen Justin's copy & his free solid model download of the S_I frame here? :

http://www.cncguns.com/projects/stiframe.html

-he did the frame in aluminum - which is no longer offered in the US - but only made some proto types for himself. Aluminum seems innovative enough to me - especially with the interest in .22 cal steel challenge guns.

If you join & research the older threads HERE you can see Justin's progress from an idea for a copy of the S_I and the actual guns he made at home for himself (and yes - making your own handguns at home is 100% lawful).

As for the "ethics" - Mpolans and Merlin have it right (IMHO).

But, does that mean folks should shop only price? - and not be loyal to companies that support us like STI?

No, of course not. I choose not to purchase or recommend Kimber 1911s because they don't give any money to USPSA or IDPA. Same goes for Colt. These are simple facts.

But, that's my personal choice and I do not fault either company for making and selling guns to Americans for the purpose of exercising our RIGHT to handgun ownership (that right existing even in Washington D.C. and Chicago). Plenty of 1911 owners don't shoot USPSA or IDPA and I am sure they are happy with their Colt or Kimber guns. All gun companies are good companies in my eyes - I just support some over others - based on support for the sports that matter to me. And, brand competition benefits all gun owners in the US - so I am glad that Colt and Kimber are still out there arming Americans.

As for a US-made 75, I though that Valtor or someone announced at SHOT that they were bringing back the original USA-made 75, the Bren 10? Any word on when & how much?

Edited September 13, 2008 by Carlos

[uscbigdawg]

Carlos - That's just freakin' awesome!

Rich

[chuckbradley]

I have a great idea, make me your USA distributor and I'll have Chuck (grin) selling them, too.

Dont think so. Plus i am usually in at Distributor level since I sell to allot of dealers. Very few things I dont buy Manufacturer direct in volume.

[chuckbradley]

What will you do for the grip. If it gets to be an issue I can guarantee STI will either cut off grip supply(they did it before!) or make them very expensive. You cant expect them to play nice when this happens. AS cut throat as most of you are then you should expect it and understand it.

[buddy_fuentes]

The smart thing to do is build your prototype and get it perfected. Then buy all of the grips you can get your hands on before starting sales. That will give you something to start with.

I think (I'm not a Lawyer...but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express) there is a federal law, that pertains to what Chuck said, about not selling items to another vendor to exclude them from competition. He sells to Bar-Sto, SVI, Chuck, and many more. Dan Wesson was considering them about two years ago. I handled the prototype at the SHOT Show.

Isn't there a company overseas (SPS?) that sells copies of S_I and mags? Maybe if he talked real nice to them they would like to sell a enough to supply him.

Where there is a will there is a way.

Buddy

[scirocco38s]

The smart thing to do is build your prototype and get it perfected. Then buy all of the grips you can get your hands on before starting sales. That will give you something to start with.

I think (I'm not a Lawyer...but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express) there is a federal law, that pertains to what Chuck said, about not selling items to another vendor to exclude them from competition. He sells to Bar-Sto, SVI, Chuck, and many more. Dan Wesson was considering them about two years ago. I handled the prototype at the SHOT Show.

Isn't there a company overseas (SPS?) that sells copies of S_I and mags? Maybe if he talked real nice to them they would like to sell a enough to supply him.

Where there is a will there is a way.

Buddy

I have personally seen Don Kimble of STI inform the people of SPS at the Florida Open 2 years ago that if they sold 1 grip he would have them arrested for selling a item protected by a US patent. They had a suitcase full of them. I have been told many different times it is the grip that is the patented part of the gun not the frame. The frame may have the serial number and is usless without the grip, but the grip is the key to the project and where they recieved the patent. That is why you dont see the sps grips being sold here by anyone. I believe you can order one and have it shipped here but you are technically in violation of the patent at that point.

[buddy_fuentes]

Patent infringement is a civil issue and not a criminal offense, therefore, you cannot be arrested for violation. The worst case is to have a Judge order you to stop selling and then sometimes down the road have to pay damages for the amount of sales. You may have heard Mr. Kimble say he would have them arrested, but it was a hollow threat.

Also, if I buy something that is a copy of something covered by a patent I am not in violation of anything. The company producing them to sell is the violator.

There only has to be a 10% change in the design to get around a patent, anyway.

If the grip is a patent item, then how does SPS sell them or put them on their guns, is it different in some way?

Guys, leave the man alone. He is trying to fulfill a dream and just because you have an interest in a particular product or manufacture doesn't mean that he is going to put them out of business. He was asking an innocent question and wanted pointers. Did any of you dogs bark on others bringing out copies of anything, ever. I doubt it. Then why bark at one of your own?

Give him the help he ask and see where it goes.

Buddy

[warpspeed]

Patent infringement is a civil issue and not a criminal offense, therefore, you cannot be arrested for violation. The worst case is to have a Judge order you to stop selling and then sometimes down the road have to pay damages for the amount of sales. You may have heard Mr. Kimble say he would have them arrested, but it was a hollow threat.

Also, if I buy something that is a copy of something covered by a patent I am not in violation of anything. The company producing them to sell is the violator.

There only has to be a 10% change in the design to get around a patent, anyway.

If the grip is a patent item, then how does SPS sell them or put them on their guns, is it different in some way?

Guys, leave the man alone. He is trying to fulfill a dream and just because you have an interest in a particular product or manufacture doesn't mean that he is going to put them out of business. He was asking an innocent question and wanted pointers. Did any of you dogs bark on others bringing out copies of anything, ever. I doubt it. Then why bark at one of your own?

Give him the help he ask and see where it goes.

Buddy

But I thought what has started this whole discussion was the expiration of the STI patent.

[Adam B]

as for the grip, it wouldn't have to be that detailed, with the checkering and diamonds like the sti ones are, everyone stipples and undercuts the stock grips so if you could get the general shape, a good smith could really mold it the way the shooter likes it. I don't know jack about manufacturing, I manage 1000 computers for a living but thought I would give my 2 cents!

[chuckbradley]

Patent infringement is a civil issue and not a criminal offense, therefore, you cannot be arrested for violation. The worst case is to have a Judge order you to stop selling and then sometimes down the road have to pay damages for the amount of sales. You may have heard Mr. Kimble say he would have them arrested, but it was a hollow threat.

Also, if I buy something that is a copy of something covered by a patent I am not in violation of anything. The company producing them to sell is the violator.

There only has to be a 10% change in the design to get around a patent, anyway.

If the grip is a patent item, then how does SPS sell them or put them on their guns, is it different in some way?

Guys, leave the man alone. He is trying to fulfill a dream and just because you have an interest in a particular product or manufacture doesn't mean that he is going to put them out of business. He was asking an innocent question and wanted pointers. Did any of you dogs bark on others bringing out copies of anything, ever. I doubt it. Then why bark at one of your own?

Give him the help he ask and see where it goes.

Buddy

Unless they were already under a court order and were in violation of that court order. There has been some previous actions in this area in the past from what I hear. I doubt they would get arrested on the spot either though.

I am surprised SPS isn't selling already if the patent has expired unless there is some rules to Importation that doesn't allow a product that competes with a US product.

I am all for somebody fulfilling a dream but make it his dream and not somebody elses.

[chuckbradley]

The smart thing to do is build your prototype and get it perfected. Then buy all of the grips you can get your hands on before starting sales. That will give you something to start with.

I think (I'm not a Lawyer...but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express) there is a federal law, that pertains to what Chuck said, about not selling items to another vendor to exclude them from competition. He sells to Bar-Sto, SVI, Chuck, and many more. Dan Wesson was considering them about two years ago. I handled the prototype at the SHOT Show.

Isn't there a company overseas (SPS?) that sells copies of S_I and mags? Maybe if he talked real nice to them they would like to sell a enough to supply him.

Where there is a will there is a way.

Buddy

SV was in on the original patent and has entered into some type of agreement to buy from STI. Barsto is under license from STI. They can choose who they want to sell to. I am sure Dave would sell the grips at the right price. Do not expect the price and availability to remain the same if somebody copies the frame and tries to compete with them. So some may think the competition will mean lower prices to them when in reality it may end up costing them more one way or another. If they raise the price on the grips to compensate then what happens every time you need to replace a grip? Sometimes we just dont realize when we have it good as is.