Picking up your gun from a table.

[rr4406pak]

At the Firecracker match up here in NY we had a stage where you had to start with your gun in front of you on a table.

On the beep I grabbed the gun and the mag fell to the ground in front of me.

I knew I fully seated the mag before the start. What the...?

I'm using an SVI with an extended mag button and it became clear that I put enough pressure on the mag button to release the mag when I picked it up.

Question is, how do I prevent this from happening in the future?

Thanks.

Edited July 23, 2008 by rr4406pak

[NMBOpen]

Covered in Burkett video, Vol 2, if it is available to you - ask to borrow at your next match if needed.

Basically strong hand thumb contacts grip safety and middle finger contacts front of trigger guard to lift gun from table, then rotate from horizontal to vertical and establish your grip. Fingertips may come into contact with the tabletop, but the hand is not putting any downward pressure on the gun. Fingers of support hand can also slip in under the slide to lift it away from the table.

Edited July 23, 2008 by NMCOpen

[Graham Smith]

Alternate version with a slight modification from the same video...

Stong hand comes in from the side in position to receive the pistol but does not make immediate contact. Support hand "scoops" the pistol up into the strong hand.

[G-ManBart]

The easy fix is to shorten the mag button until that can't happen. Sometimes going to a wider thumb safety can create enough clearance so that you don't have to worry about it. Wide magwells also help raise the gun off the table a little too....the Dawson ICE is probably the widest and will help the most. My edge with an extended button, wide SV ambis and ICE can be flat on the table and there's no way you can get the mag release button to depress.

[JKSNIPER]

No offense to Matt Burkett but I would bet hes done that technique a quadrizillion times.

Us mere mortals might just throw our triggerfinger or other finger accidentally into the trigger guard while under stress and trying to move fast.

Earning ourselves an embarassing A.D./N.D. resulting in a DQ. (Hopefully that is ALL it would earn us)

I would think that the safer option for most of us would be as Graham Smith posted to use the support hand to scoop the pistol up.

Unless you have a billion reps and time to execute them so the other option is safe.

Just my .02 ......trying to be safe before being fast.

JK

[UW Mitch]

Shoot left handed My mag button faces up when I do a table start!

[Jeff686]

I saw a tip from one of the big GMs. I think it was Taran, but not sure.

They said to retrieve the gun with the weak hand. Place the gun into the strong hand. Slide the weak hand into place.

It sounds like it takes a little longer. It also sounds like it guarantees a good grip.

It might depend on how soon after retrieving the gun you have to fire it. The above method might be just as fast if you are still moving to a port or box. The Burkett method might be faster for a standing grab-n-shoot.

Edit: Sorry, the above is almost a duplicate of Grahams post. Didn't mean to take up bandwidth.

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On my limited gun, I had to increase the magazine release spring strength until it would rest on the button without dropping the magazine. It's an easy thing to test at home. I think Wolff sells multi-packs with a range of spring strengths.

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You could add a sidewinder or other slide racker. It would prop the gun up. If you're shooting open with a C-more, try aerowings, or the battery cover kick-stand thingy. http://www.henningshootsguns.com/shop/mounts.html

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Edited July 23, 2008 by Jeff686

[reneet]

I put one of Bob Londrigan's mag wells and a Brown Wide Thumb Safety on my Limited gun to fix that problem. No matter how hard I hit the gun, the mag will not come out.

On my open gun, I stuck a screw in one of the unused holes of my C-More Slide Ride that keeps the gun up off of the table.

Edited July 23, 2008 by reneet

[pjb45]

There was an article in Front Sight which covers picking up the gun from a table. Check your back issues. Different techniques can be employed for different circumstances.

[TMC]

I don't use big buttons on my limited guns anymore because of this, problem solved

[racerba]

The secret is to NOT push down on the grips.

[Vlad]

Recently I've seen some people experiment with the laying the gun on the right side (the opposite of the usual way) and pick the gun up with the left hand by grabbing the slide and the outside of the trigger guard (with the palm around the trigger guard which avoids the trigger) and then placing in it the right hand.

I think they are nuts, but it may work for some people.

[Turtle]

The two basic methods are the "pinch" and the "flip" (or a combination of the two together). The "pinch" is accomplished by grabbing the gun by pinching it with the stronghand thumb on the grip safety and the middle, ring, and pinky fingers on the frontstrap. The instant the gun is slightly lifted from the table you "pop" it into your firing grip (as if you would intuitively readjust after a bad draw). This way no downward pressure is put on the gun and consequently the mag catch.

The "flip" is what Graham described earlier. You either pinch the grip as previously described or let your hand hover over the gun as you flip it up with your support hand fingertips. I use the back of my C-more as a flipping point but you can use the back of the slide or the edge of your Bo-mar or any other such place.

If it's a stand and shoot stage I'd probably use the flip but if it's a grab the gun and run stage I'd use the pinch.

Edited July 24, 2008 by Turtle

[johnnybravo]

Recently I've seen some people experiment with the laying the gun on the right side (the opposite of the usual way) and pick the gun up with the left hand by grabbing the slide and the outside of the trigger guard (with the palm around the trigger guard which avoids the trigger) and then placing in it the right hand.

I think they are nuts, but it may work for some people.

Well, this method actually works. I use it a lot, especially if I'm going to move before my first shot. the left hand acts as a holster and supports the gun while you establish your strong hand grip.

[HSMITH]

The simplest method is pick it up how ever you want, just take the mag button off.

[38supPat]

Surprised it hasn't been said yet....dryfire your table draws. If you want to do it right, do it lots! If you get caught off guard by a mag dropping, you haven't been practicing.

You'll need to be able to pick the gun up more than one way. Scooping with the left hand can work fine if you are straight up standing in front of a table and will be shooting freestyle, but if you need to turn, pick up on the move, or shoot unsupported you'll have to know how to retrieve it one handed too. Not to mention briefcase draws or anything where you need to activate something or load the gun on the draw.

[rr4406pak]

The simplest method is pick it up how ever you want, just take the mag button off.

Then my reloads will suffer.

And I reload a lot more than I pick gun off table.

[G-ManBart]

The simplest method is pick it up how ever you want, just take the mag button off.

Then my reloads will suffer.

And I reload a lot more than I pick gun off table.

This is still a problem? The most likely solutions have already been posted. Wider safeties with a big magwell will let you pick it up any way you want and not hit the button, or scoop it with your left hand, or lay it on the other side and pick it up with your left hand, etc. The last thing I can think of is to put a slide racker on your gun.

[DrShooter]

One addition to all the techniques discussed in this thread: on a start like this, stare down the gun and don't look anywhere else until your grip is established. It's not very far from the front of the trigger guard and the trigger, so look your index finger into the correct placement. The flip is safer, but look it in just the same.

There's plenty of time to find the first target after the grip is good.

[XRe]

I've taught quite a number of people Matt's technique. I've not heard of one of my students ever encountering a DQ. All of them (including myself) are "mere mortals". I also show them a couple of other techniques, and we put them all on the timer, and decide what works best for them. All of them end up using Burkett's technique - its generally a tenth faster for just about everyone, if not more, even with an Open gun which has a built in "support hand handle" (ie, scope).

While Matt may have practiced the technique a lot, it doesn't take very many repeitions for the skill to become second nature and very clear - and safe.

Dave

No offense to Matt Burkett but I would bet hes done that technique a quadrizillion times.

Us mere mortals might just throw our triggerfinger or other finger accidentally into the trigger guard while under stress and trying to move fast.

Earning ourselves an embarassing A.D./N.D. resulting in a DQ. (Hopefully that is ALL it would earn us)

I would think that the safer option for most of us would be as Graham Smith posted to use the support hand to scoop the pistol up.

Unless you have a billion reps and time to execute them so the other option is safe.

Just my .02 ......trying to be safe before being fast.

JK

[XRe]

Surprised it hasn't been said yet....dryfire your table draws. If you want to do it right, do it lots! If you get caught off guard by a mag dropping, you haven't been practicing.

Well said, Pat...

You'll need to be able to pick the gun up more than one way. Scooping with the left hand can work fine if you are straight up standing in front of a table and will be shooting freestyle,

Not to mention that scooping w/ the weak hand or trying to slide "under" the beavertail w/ the strong hand both can present a problem on a slick-ish surface - you run the risk of pushing the gun across the surface instead of picking it up off the surface.

but if you need to turn, pick up on the move, or shoot unsupported you'll have to know how to retrieve it one handed too. Not to mention briefcase draws or anything where you need to activate something or load the gun on the draw.

This is a good point, too - we do see stages where you're holding something in the weak hand, and must retrieve the gun SHO - so you should at least have a passing knowledge with one handed table start, even if another method works better for you in most circumstances...

[JKSNIPER]

"I've taught quite a number of people Matt's technique. I've not heard of one of my students ever encountering a DQ. All of them (including myself) are "mere mortals". I also show them a couple of other techniques, and we put them all on the timer, and decide what works best for them. All of them end up using Burkett's technique - its generally a tenth faster for just about everyone, if not more, even with an Open gun which has a built in "support hand handle" (ie, scope).

While Matt may have practiced the technique a lot, it doesn't take very many repeitions for the skill to become second nature and very clear - and safe.

Dave"

Dave,

I'm not saying you don't have experience or know what you're doing.

Just saying that Graham pointed out a "safer" way.

Your way ........It may work fine every time you do it.

Then again you may get over stressed or excited as at a big match and do something you normally wouldn't.

Not saying you will...just saying the potential is there with that type of grab from the table, under time limits, possibly under stress, etc......

Friend of mine says "Theres 2 types of people in this world.....those who have fired on the wrong target and those that will."

I knew semi-pro competitors, (police/military snipers) that SWORE they were so good/careful that it would NEVER HAPPEN TO THEM.

Then I was an R.O. at a match and the team that was burning up the sniper competitions did just that. Not once but multiple times.

If Emmons can make a mistake doing something hes done a billion times then I can make the same mistake and therefore I look to see where the potential for a mistake(Murphy) is and try to find a way to beat him before he can strike me.

Thats all.

Not saying that you're wrong or Matt Burkett is wrong...just saying for guys that don't have 8 hours a day to practice this over and over again that perhaps finding the safer way is better than going for speed.

Just my .02 dude.

JK

[XRe]

Then again you may get over stressed or excited as at a big match and do something you normally wouldn't.

Not saying you will...just saying the potential is there with that type of grab from the table, under time limits, possibly under stress, etc......

I don't mean this offensively - you're fooling yourself if you don't believe that's true of every possible skill - including using the weak hand to pick the gun up on a table start. There are several actions that have to occur improperly or out of order with both skills to cause a negligent discharge, and they're surprisingly the same. Its just as easy to get the finger on the trigger with a weak hand pick up as it is with the pinch. If one also takes the safety off early.... bad things can happen, in both cases. Add in to this that things other than the pinch have a greater risk of pushing the gun around on a slick surface (which can - and sometimes does - cause the gun to slide off the surface and hit the dirt ) and I think its rather arguable as to which version is "safer", especially under pressure.

Not saying that you're wrong or Matt Burkett is wrong...just saying for guys that don't have 8 hours a day to practice this over and over again that perhaps finding the safer way is better than going for speed.

None of the folks I mentioned have anything even remotely close to 8 hours a day to practice - I certainly don't. I don't think I've spent 8 hours practicing table starts in my life, much less a day. I doubt highly that Matt has ever spent that much time on table starts, either. Quite frankly, use the right technique and you will not only be both fast and safe, but you will also require much less practice to keep a mechanically simpler skill sound and well practiced.

You're making this out to be some kind of "high risk" skill set or something, and its simply not the case. No, I don't think you're saying I'm "wrong" or that I "don't know what I'm doing" - you could be saying that, and it wouldn't bug me, anyway And, you're certainly welcome to do what works best for you. Just realize that external perception and beliefs may be in the way of you learning a better, safer, more consistent skill....

ETA - I may have lied above - one of my students has extremely small hands, and I can't remember if she stuck with this, or uses the weak hand when she can, just from a comfort standpoint. She could execute this skill - like, for an unloaded start, or something - but may have chosen to stick w/ picking it up weak handed from a comfort zone standpoint... I can't remember for certain, at this point...

Edited August 21, 2008 by XRe

[Graham Smith]

If I may interrupt... The original question had to do with accidentally pushing down on the gun and activating the mag release. This is something that IS ADDRESSED by Matt in his video and this is where the ALTERNATE method of pickup using the support hand scoop I mentioned is demonstrated.

Thank you. You may now return to your "argument".

[38supPat]

The same comments could apply to any technique in IPSC, from the draw to reloads or loading the gun at the start. If you want to be good and/or safe, you must practice. If you don't want to practice, expect problems, either performance wise, or safety. You will make mistakes if you don't work to avoid them regardless of technique....it's that simple.