Tactical Reloads

[sv45]

Any tips on tac-reloads and what are your times? I have started after leaving a shooting position i grab a new mag so when i reach cover my gun a mag are in position for a reload. If a required reload before you leave a shooting position, once the mag clicks in, can you start walking to the next position as you tuck the old mag in your pocket?

Any tips on gaming the reloads?

thanks sv45

[Duane Thomas]

Any tips on tac-reloads and what are your times? I have started after leaving a shooting position i grab a new mag so when i reach cover my gun a mag are in position for a reload. If a required reload before you leave a shooting position, once the mag clicks in, can you start walking to the next position as you tuck the old mag in your pocket?

Any tips on gaming the reloads?

Don't walk. RUN!

I can do a reload with retention in about 2.25 to 2.5 seconds. The really good guys, like Matt Burkett, can do it in about 1.5 seconds. There are only a few instances I can think of where a RWT would be preferable to shooting to slidelock, and even fewer where I'd choose a tac-load over a RWT. Though such instances occur, so you should know how to do all three.

[vincent]

Shoot for a consistent slide-lock reload in under 2.0, reload with retention in under 2.5, and a tac-load in under 3.0 with IDPA gear and concealment. These times are shot to shot, A hits, shooting from behind cover - just like you would in a match. I'm not saying these will be your best times during a practice session - strive to make these your worst times for the entire day.

Do a tac-load when you can't slide lock reload and you have some cover to move past. Remember you can access and/or stash on the move so you only need enough time behind cover to perform the actual magazine exchange. Remembering to access and/or stash on the move is the key to gaming the tac-load.

Do a reload with retention during standards where you are standing still and you have a choice of tac-load or reload with retention. Flat footed a reload with retention is about .5 sec faster than a tac-load. Another place is when you have a long wall of cover to run down that you can complete the reload behind. Otherwise accessing on the move or stashing on the move often makes the tac-load a better choice during scenario type stages.

Do a slide lock reload whenever possible. Try to make it so you reload between targets, not between shots on the same target. Be careful dumping rounds, but realize that it is part of the competition and your stage plan should take it into consideration.

[mcoliver]

Any tips on gaming the reloads?

thanks sv45

Yeah, BIG pocket holes. Fat mags and tight jeans doesn't seem to go too well together. However, slim mags seems easier to stuff in my waist and makes for a faster tac load for me.

[Steve Moneypenny]

The actual number of reloads that can be "gamed" is not very high, as when you are running, RUN, don't fiddle with your mags, then hit your position right and your set for that array or atleast most of the shooting from that position.

Dumping rounds is dangerous, especially when your a master shooting with masters.

my times were horrible last time i timed a tac load or RWR (reload with retention), you should have them smooth though.

There are a couple of ways to game this, such as instead of trying to stuff your mag ON the run where some of us who don't have flat abs let the mag pop out ( yeah its ok, but not if you need the ammo later, some courses you do.) so wait to stash the mag until just b efore you take that last step into position.

the times posted are good. i'll say 2 is a good time for the Tac load for anybody.

[Duane Thomas]

There are a couple of ways to game this, such as instead of trying to stuff your mag ON the run where some of us who don't have flat abs let the mag pop out ( yeah its ok, but not if you need the ammo later, some courses you do.) so wait to stash the mag until just b efore you take that last step into position.

I approach it a bit differently. I want the tac-load done and over with as soon as possible, within a few steps away from cover at most, so I can concentrate on prepping for the next array.

[mcoliver]

I approach it a bit differently. I want the tac-load done and over with as soon as possible, within a few steps away from cover at most, so I can concentrate on prepping for the next array.

Same here. What I don't understand is why some people insist on putting it back in their pouch wasting time hunting for that very small opening? On top of that, the problem of pulling out a partially full mag in the next position.

[GlocknSchpiel]

I'm one of those guys that puts the mag back in the pouch. The reason is simply because I wear jeans and it takes me too long to shove the mag in a pocket. Now if I'm wearing my cammo, then the pocket gets used.

One trick that I've learned when using the pouch; Put the mag in backward. If you need to grab a fresh mag later, you'll know which one is full and which one isn't!

Glockn...

[Steve Moneypenny]

Glockenspiel

all of that under pressure. your over complicting. back pocket, or better yet waist band would be a better place to put the mag. some mags won't go in backwards ( formed plastic pouches)

I can say having shot 2 or 3 matches squadded with ernie langdon and scott warren, they didn't do this. and in a class from ernie i asked, and he said that its almost always faster to go to slide lock

[down0]

Big pockets may seem obvious, but you'd be surprised. I SO'ed a stage at the just-completed OK State Match that had several reloads. I gave the shooters the option of wearing concealment on the stage. I gave them that option to see how many would actually think about the pros and cons of wearing it or not. Many decided not to, mainly (I think) because it was hot (over 90) and very humid that weekend. I should also mention that the stage started with a loaded gun on a barrel-top and all the mags you would use on the stage next to the gun. And the stage required that all mags had to stashed in a pocket (not in your mag holders or in your belt) before you spanked off your first shot. Those that chose no concealment had a much tougher time stowing and un-stowing mags from pants and shorts pockets than those that decided those big ole pockets on their vests were a better idea. It was certainly more entertaining for me, in that much fumbling, cursing, talking to the mags, etc ensued. BTW, FWIW, 80% of the 100+ shooters I SO'ed went their mag holders first, when it came time to reload.

[tightloop]

I with Smoney on this one, lots faster to go to the waistband than either mag holder or pocket, unless the pocket is huge and in that case I would impose the dreaded FTDR cause big pockets aren't in the spirit of the match. How many of you go about your daily business wearing BDU's or camo? Not too many .

Heck, down0, I should give you the FTDR for trying to make the shooters game the stage with special clothing. FWIW, I thought big pockets on concealment clothing were not allowed any longer.

G&S, I have never and would never put the empty mag back into the holder. Too much time, bad tactics during the match.

[vincent]

Every shooting school I've ever been to has said to never put an empty or partial magazine back in the magazine pouch. I would not recommend it simply from a defensive handgun point of view.

[JasonK]

[sarcasm]Tactical Ted Mode[/sarcasm]

But the whole point to a tactical reload is so I can save the ammunition for later. What's the point in saving it if I put it in a pocket and don't use it???

[rhino]

How dare you challenge doctrine with logic!

[down0]

I with Smoney on this one, lots faster to go to the waistband than either mag holder or pocket, unless the pocket is huge and in that case I would impose the dreaded FTDR cause big pockets aren't in the spirit of the match. How many of you go about your daily business wearing BDU's or camo? Not too many .

Heck, down0, I should give you the FTDR for trying to make the shooters game the stage with special clothing. FWIW, I thought big pockets on concealment clothing were not allowed any longer.

G&S, I have never and would never put the empty mag back into the holder. Too much time, bad tactics during the match.

FTDR? Ouch! I was speaking generally. Pockets in shooting vests tend to be larger and easier to access than pants pockets. At least, that's been my experience. Now, let me tell you about the other stage I SO'ed. It was called "Tactical Tractor"..........

[mcoliver]

[sarcasm]Tactical Ted Mode[/sarcasm]

But the whole point to a tactical reload is so I can save the ammunition for later. What's the point in saving it if I put it in a pocket and don't use it???

IMO that will be a valid point if you trust yourself that you won't drop that mag when hunting for that small pouch opening under pressure AND you only have one spare.

However, I shoot competitively while still being as "tactical" as the rules apply AND I want to win. So I wear 2 spares just so I don't distract myself with a non-programmed tac load because I pulled out a partially filled mag or worse, one that's empty.

Your reasons for shooting IDPA may be different though.

[vincent]

Sarcasm understood.

However there is quite a bit of logic in not putting the post reload magazine back into the pouch:

1) As mentioned putting it back in the pouch is harder to do under stress as the opening is smaller.

2) You are unlikely to know how few rounds are left in the magazine or whether it is empty. To K.I.S.S it is best to reserve the magazine pouch for full magazines. Then if you reach for one from the most trained place it should be what you expect - this is "Plan A".

3) Since you have retained the magazine in a pocket or waistband, you CAN use it if needed. Also since it is not in your magazine pouch you are unlikely to go for it until all of your full magazines are gone (good). Being in a backup location you also realize that it might be low on rounds or empty. Basically a "Plan A" then "Plan B" situation.

I don't see it as dogma, I see it as a good plan.

[JasonK]

In a competition setting you will know going in how many rounds will be required. If you have scenario that will have you getting into your third magazine then you will be doing three magazine changes. You will be using some rounds from your "first" tactical mag change. Now you need to decide which will potentially be faster, placing the first mag back in a mag holder and reloading from the holder or dropping the magazine in a "tactical" vest pocket and fishing it out later for the reload.

IMO that will be a valid point if you trust yourself that you won't drop that mag when hunting for that small pouch opening under pressure AND you only have one spare.

If you were making a valid attempt to hit your mag pouch and the mag fell out you should not get a procedural.

[tightloop]

JasonK

Most IDPA stages are limited to 21 or fewer rounds. Unless you start with no mag in your pistol, that is only 2 mag changes.

If the stage specifically calls for using one of the previously used mags, I think it is still faster to obtain that used mag from your waist (stowed position) rather than hunt to replace it in the mag pouch in the first place, then access it again.

I can see no penalty if you stowed it in the waistband and it fell out, but if you replace it in the mag pouch like it was originally, there should be no cause for it to fall out. If you just make a "token" attempt to replace it in the mag pouch and it falls to the ground, it would be a call by the SO if he thinks you are trying to game the stage. Penalty, probably.

[JasonK]

IDPA scenarios are limited to 18 rounds scored. Three magazines, one in the pistol and two in a belt holder.

If a scenario is designed so that you have to use all three magazines then you will be doing three magazine changes. For instance if there are three places where you have to tac-load before moving out from cover. It is arbitrary but I have seen it done. As far as I can tell there are no rules prohibiting a scenario from specifying All tactical reloads.

You have hit on my point though, unless there is a stage that forces three magazine changes you will NEVER get back into the first tac-load mag. To make an extreme example an 8 rd. CDP pistol will start out 8+1, fire 1 rd. and tac-load (1 rd.) shoot second mag dry, (9 rds.) reload and shoot third mag dry (8 rds.) for a total round count of 18. I am assuming that you are not missing or shooting -3's you feel compelled to make up.

tightloop,

If you have properly stowed a mag in a mag pouch it is no more likely to fall out than a mag Properly stowed in my waistband. How do you make the call if a magazine was properly stowed in someones waistband or if they only made a "token" attempt?

[tightloop]

My point exactly, the SO can see if it is stowed in the mag holder, but not in the waistband. According to the LGB any questionable calls should go to the shooter. Since he cannot see if you stowed it securely in the waistband (unless he is in front of you) and it falls out, no penalty. If you stowed it haphazzardly, in the mag pouch, it is his call.

Ok, 18 rounds, but I've not seen more than 3 or 4 stages where you did not shoot most of the rounds in the mag when going thru a stage and fewer yet to shoot 1 or 2 then do a mandated reload and then need to get to the first mag.

Since you start with a mag in the gun, and are mandated to use the other two...let's see... no, that is only two reloads. I understand that you can write a stage to do any number of mandatory reloads and still only use only 18 rounds, but I would have to say that those are pretty lame in design and do not follow the dictum of "practicality" as isssued from the Mount of Berryville.

If you are looking for a stage that practices reloads, and uses all three types, just as a drill, cool. I can tac load/, load from retension or slidelock reload with the best.

I see what you are saying, but let's not get into a symantics discussion.

STILL faster to go to the waistband than your method, my $.02 worth.

[JasonK]

OK, I understand what you are saying about only two reloads. What I'm not making clear is that a scenario can be written in a way that would force three reloads. In that situation (and only that situation unless you are making up a lot of shots) you will need to go back to that first partial magazine.

My real original point and the reason for the sarcastic comment is if a course is designed according to IDPA rules and "intent" then there will not be a reason for going back to the first partial magazine. Which defeats the whole supposed reason for keeping the mag in the first place!

If you notice I haven't actually taken a stance on the issue until now. I just love playing devil's advocate. I think that putting your partial in a vest pocket is faster than putting it in a mag holder. If, however, I know I will need that magazine again then I put it back in my mag holder because my reload will be faster later. I can pull off a reload from the belt holder enough faster than from a vest pocket to make up the little extra time it takes me to put the mag back in the holder. I am one of the despised flatbelly shooters. That means I need to keep my belt tight to keep my gun and pants from falling off. Which means that I have practiced putting my mags back in the holder because I can't get them in the waistband as fast. I'm not saying that I can get the mag in the holder faster than you can get a mag in YOUR waistband. Just that I can get the mag in the holder faster than I can get it in MY waistband. If concealment garments are called for then the vest pocket is first choice, otherwise belt holder.

[JasonK]

BTW, a Super Gamer might very well interpret that if he were to need that little edge once in a while the best tac-load would consist of a quick "honest attempt" to stow the mag in the waistband. After all the SO can't see what happend anyway and the shooter always gets the benefit of the doubt.

Beware all intrepid SG's your secret is now out.

[tightloop]

Oh Baby Oh,

Now you are edging over into Ghost Reload territory.

[faustulus]

On top of that, the problem of pulling out a partially full mag in the next position.

Did that by mistake one time and it cost me the match.

I cursed bill wilson to high heaven that day. But I got over it. ... I think.