TDean Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 In preparation for the Wa. State IDPA match this weekend, I've been doing some serious work on reloads the last few days. The question I needed to answer was what advantage each of the two reloads have. The tac-load, vs-the reload w/retention. The PACT timer was set with a par of 3.25sec. I learned that both reloads take exactly the same amount of time, from shot-to-shot. The difference is that with the Tac-reload, the mag is seated and I'm able to move at 2.25sec. It takes another second to stow the mag and get the hand back to the gun. (3.25 total) Why would anybody ever use the reload with retention? From now on, I will have only one style of reloading in IDPA, the Tactical. I see absolutely no advantage to RWR other than hoping my competition is still using it and is confused about which one to use (in the middle of a stage hopefully). 3.25 sec is a quick comfortable pace. Not slow, not all-or-nothing blazing. I can hit it EVERY time. The TR is more complicated, but if it's the only one you do, it gets realllllly easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 Why would anybody ever use the reload with retention? You're looking at it from the perspective of someone who is proficient at the tactical reload by way of practice. For the people who don't/won't practice, have small hands, or limited dexterity, the reload with retention greatly reduces the "fumble factor" and for many will be faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 If the stages are worked out like they should be, you should be doing 3 slide lock reloads for every tac load. Good luck at the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 Slide-locks would be nice! Unfortunately, I'll be an "IPSC'er" in a sea of besotted IDPA'ers. I'm made to feel as if I were to throw one round more than necessary downrange (then speed-reload), I'd be given a procedural. I think I'm gonna have to do this one the hard way, the Smith-Barney way....."earn it!" (meaning I might even put an empty mag in my pocket) That's a good point Rhino. For some folks, it's best. The TR does require more precision, but if it's the only one in your inventory and you CAN do it, why not make it the ONLY way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 13, 2003 Share Posted August 13, 2003 That's a good point Rhino. For some folks, it's best.The TR does require more precision, but if it's the only one in your inventory and you CAN do it, why not make it the ONLY way? Agreed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 TDean, The reload with retention actually has fewer movements. Those who have practiced it (I'm not one of them) have pointed out your hand goes from the gun to the pocket which is below the new mag, and picks up the mag on the way to the gun. One down and one up movement. For a tactical reload your hand goes to the mag, up to the gun for the swap, down to the pocket and back to the gun. Once you have gotten it smoothed out the reload with retention is faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 TDean,The reload with retention actually has fewer movements. Those who have practiced it (I'm not one of them) have pointed out your hand goes from the gun to the pocket which is below the new mag, and picks up the mag on the way to the gun. One down and one up movement. For a tactical reload your hand goes to the mag, up to the gun for the swap, down to the pocket and back to the gun. Once you have gotten it smoothed out the reload with retention is faster. I find this true. However, there are scenarios that I have to re-program myslef for a tac-load since I want to get moving right away. But guess what, sometimes the auto-pilot overrides the plan and I do a RWR. So now I just practice with the tac-load (overcame a dexterity problem, btw). TDean, what I noticed when doing IDPA reloads is that my hand seems to be moving slower going to the spare mag compared to an IPSC reload...not actually sure why (same mag location). But when I noticed it, I started to duplicate the IPSC speed (of going to the spare) and actually cut .2sec out of the reload. Last time I clocked my shot-to-shot tac load it was about 2.3-2.5sec. (from a glock, just standing, no leaning out from cover to make the shot). Of course, extra open wide pockets did help a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Ok, I'm breathing heavy now cause I just tried it again........ Comparing the two, AT FULL THROTTLE, the RWR is faster! Setting the par at 2.50sec, I can drop the hammer (aiming at target on wall) 80% of the time using the RWR. Using the TR, I never got it done in 2.50. 2.75 maaaaaybe......but never 2.50 I think I will still drop the RWR from my bag o'tricks, cause at cruising speed (which is what wins matches, not stages) they're both within .25 sec of eachother. If I can take the burden off my shoulders wondering which reload to use, I'll be more relaxed to save that .25 sec on accurate hits. ...that's the plan at least. Thanks for your input gents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 You snuck that post in on me MickO. However, there are scenarios that I have to re-program myslef for a tac-load since I want to get moving right away. But guess what, sometimes the auto-pilot overrides the plan and I do a RWR. That's exactly what I'm talking about! Exactly! Also, my times above are using your typical Dockers shorts, no vest, just standing like you say. (I should get one of those vests?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Just an observation, but how fast you can do a RWR while standing upright in the open doesn't really transition over to a match. Even just trying to do it while moving makes it much more difficult to hit that pocket. My plan this weekend is going to slidelock unless there's a compelling reason not to. I guess we'll see in a few days which really works better! (Note to be.com readers: TDean and I are shooting in the same division at the WA State IDPA Champs.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Yes we are Duane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ Posted August 14, 2003 Share Posted August 14, 2003 Also, my times above are using your typical Dockers shorts.... Gamer!! I'm just wearing my normal "street shorts" for this thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Actually, I have to take back what I said earlier. Went out last night, set up a simple target engagement sequence - one target at three yards, draw and engage while moving about seven yards, engage another target around a wall. I was consistently 1.5 seconds faster doing a RWR while moving that going to slidelock. Strangely, I was still faster even if I did the RWR while standing still at the first target before moving to the next shooting position. Glad I did that test. I guess Saturday and Sunday are going to be RWR kind of days.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 No way the RWR should be faster than a slide lock reload, especially on the move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 I should have been clearer. I set things up so I had to do the slidelock reload at the second position. One shot, slide locks back, pull behind cover, reload, come out and reengage with one more round. I couldn't do it on the move - no great loss since you'll very rarely be allowed to move from position to position with an empty gun in IDPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted August 15, 2003 Share Posted August 15, 2003 Got 'cha, I understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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